What does “tiller hard over to starboard” mean to you?

[veshengro]

" it was a description of what the helmsperson does with the tiller."

What you mean like advice to an inexperienced person steering astern for the first time? .

How do I get the bow in?...Put the tiller hard ov... (finish the rest for 10 points..)

 

[14K478]

It can be said that the addition of one word can change the form ...

"tiller hard over to starboard"
could be construed as turn to stbd by some ...

but ..

"shove tiller hard over to starboard,"

that word 'shove' would mean Tiller to stbd side.

The thread title was without the word "shove" .....

Thank you!

 

[vyv_cox]

If I remember correctly this action was a subject of much interest in the film Titanic. The helmsman's action was the opposite of the order given, which dated back to the days when tiller steering was the norm. Apparently the film was correct.

 

[Daydream believer]

I would take it as meaning what it says; that the tiller itself should be pushed to starboard. It is not a phrase I would use. I might say helm up, or down, which is traditional, but I suppose that these days even that might be misunderstood.

So what is the point of helm up & helm down? My tiller does pivot up & down, but I only pivot it up to cross over between traveller & tiller, when tacking, or to give more room in the cockpit when berthed

 

[14K478]

" it was a description of what the helmsperson does with the tiller."

What you mean like advice to an inexperienced person steering astern for the first time? .

How do I get the bow in?...Put the tiller hard ov... (finish the rest for 10 points..)

If you are going stern the

If I remember correctly this action was a subject of much interest in the film Titanic. The helmsman's action was the opposite of the order given, which dated back to the days when tiller steering was the norm. Apparently the film was correct.

Absolutely right. The helm orders for merchant ships were actually changed from "in the sense of a tiller" to "in the sense of a wheel" by International Convention in 1929, and should anyone wish to know more about it there is a learned paper here:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ing-of-steam/95ADBFAF035D8BD5400D601A44E7FA66

 

[14K478]

So what is the point of helm up & helm down? My tiller does pivot up & down, but I only pivot it up to cross over between traveller & tiller, when tacking, or to give more room in the cockpit when berthed

This is only ever said on board a sailing vessel which heels away from the wind when not running free.

"Up" means move the tiller uphill - towards the wind, so that you bear away, and "down" means away from the wind so that you luff.

 

[Refueler]

If I remember correctly this action was a subject of much interest in the film Titanic. The helmsman's action was the opposite of the order given, which dated back to the days when tiller steering was the norm. Apparently the film was correct.

Yes .. as I posted earlier being Naval Commands ...

 

[capnsensible]

It's like all the RYA instructors (in the Solent at least) teaching "standard" tacking calls to include "helm to lee" when most of the training yachts have a wheel.

"When I nod my head, hit it"

Nothing wrong with that. As long as the coach explains it. That's his...or her....job.

 

[capnsensible]

Go back to 1800's etc. and orders were Tiller commands ... even right up into first years of 1900 ...

I agree that your comment solves it ... my orders to Helmsman on ships was always as example : Port xx bring her to xxx heading etc. But for last 100yrs or so - even Naval commands have followed the TURN format and not Tiller.

Ten down, keep 200 feet.......

 

[rogerthebodger]

I remember listening to the Navy lark on the Wireless on Sunday afternoon

left hand a bit Mr Povy

A tiller has no meaning to most people at the helm on a boat with wheel steering

 

[fredrussell]

I find it very hard indeed to believe that FredRussell didn't know what I meant.

I did know what you meant as in the context of your post it was quite clear. I didn’t say you incorrectly said this or that- I was just reminded by your use of the phrase that my easily confused brain struggles a bit with commands like “shove tiller hard to starboard” - mainly because what i inexpertly focus on in that phrase is “hard to starboard”.
I should admit here that I’m one of those people that mixes up left and right in everyday situations although weirdly I never mix up port and starboard which I would assume is dealt with by the same part of brain that processes left and right.

 

[Refueler]

I did know what you meant as in the context of your post it was quite clear. I didn’t say you incorrectly said this or that- I was just reminded by your use of the phrase that my easily confused brain struggles a bit with commands like “shove tiller hard to starboard” - mainly because what i inexpertly focus on in that phrase is “hard to starboard”.
I should admit here that I’m one of those people that mixes up left and right in everyday situations although weirdly I never mix up port and starboard which I would assume is dealt with by the same part of brain that processes left and right.

Funny that ... I have been known to decide fenders / lines on xxxx side ... then approaching berth - everyone realises it should be fenders / lines other side !!

I have now the solution to this ... I have fenders / lines rigged BOTH sides !!

 

[RupertW]

Funny that ... I have been known to decide fenders / lines on xxxx side ... then approaching berth - everyone realises it should be fenders / lines other side !!

I have now the solution to this ... I have fenders / lines rigged BOTH sides !!

Trouble is with finger berths (which I loathe now compared to lazy lines), you need one height for the finger and a much higher height for the boat alongside the other finger. So sometimes a quick change when you see which side the finger actually is if your question, “what side if we are going in astern“ is lost in the translation.

 

[johnalison]

So what is the point of helm up & helm down? My tiller does pivot up & down, but I only pivot it up to cross over between traveller & tiller, when tacking, or to give more room in the cockpit when berthed

I would say that it isn't something I would often say unless I were having one of my fits of pretentiousness, but it does have the weight of tradition behind it. It assumes that the boat is heeling and that the helmsman is sitting or standing to weather of a tiller, when 'up' simply means 'towards you'. I rather like its quaintness, but to a novice crew I would most likely tell them to pull or push the helm towards or away from them, with no left/right/port/starboard involved.

 

[Sandro]

Also in Italian in a sailing boat we sometimes use "barra sotto" meaning "tiller down" or "barra sottovento" meaning "tiller to lee" for luffing, but either in naval or merchant to day shipping the unambiguous orders are "timone a dritta" and "timone a sinistra" meaning "rudder to starboard" and "rudder to port".

 

[jamie N]

I sail on my own because of the previous 35 posts.

 

[steveeasy]

Twas the collision several years ago I believe in the Netherlands. Skipper informed the Helmsman Hard to port and the Helmsman put the tiller hard to Port. It resulted in a significant collision with a large ship. the large sailing boat was cut in two pieces. Quite a good article on how commands were and are given.

someone will find it on the interweb.

Steveeasy

 

[LittleSister]

If I remember correctly this action was a subject of much interest in the film Titanic. The helmsman's action was the opposite of the order given, which dated back to the days when tiller steering was the norm. Apparently the film was correct.

Absolutely right. The helm orders for merchant ships were actually changed from "in the sense of a tiller" to "in the sense of a wheel" by International Convention in 1929, and should anyone wish to know more about it there is a learned paper here:

A Note on Helm Orders After the Coming of Steam | The Journal of Navigation | Cambridge Core

If I recall correctly it was also an issue on that traditional sailing boat with passengers that collided with a ship in a river in Germany (the Elbe?) a few years ago, and then sank. The video taken from onboard showing the lead up to the collision had someone, apparently realising the imminent danger, shouting an instruction, and one of the crew manhandling the tiller the (seemingly) wrong way, apparently contributing the to the collision. The issue of the apparent mismatch between order and action was discussed on this forum, but I have a vague notion that issue was mysteriously absent from the subsequent official accident report.

p.s. Steveeasy types faster than me. I think he's referring to the same event, but I reckon he's got the country wrong.

p.p.s. Linky - The collision between "Elbe no. 5" and m/v "Astrosprinter"

 

[LittleSister]

To me there doesn't seem any ambiguity,
a) if you're told 'steer hard a port', or even just 'hard a port', you turn the vessel hard to port (by pushing the tiller, if it has one, hard to starboard);
b) if you're told 'tiller hard a port', you obviously push the tiller hard a port, which will turn the vessel to starboard.
I'm puzzled why others don't see it this way.

(Incidentally, if you want to maximise the speed of the turn of the vessel, you don't immediately put the tiller or wheel to maximum rudder, as that will stall the rudder, reducing turning rate and slowing the vessel which will also reduce the potential turn rate. Instead you start at about 20 degrees or so of helm then progressively increase as soon as the stern of the boat starts moving sideways through the water, so that while the rudder's angle to the boat increases well beyond 20 degrees, it remains at that sort of angle to the flow of water over it. You might end up with the rudder hard over (i.e. against its stop), but you don't want to start the turn with it there. In traditional craft such as the Elbe No. 5 you probably can't move the tiller fast enough to stall the rudder, but it's easy enough to do in modern small leisure craft.)

 

[LittleSister]

If I remember correctly this action was a subject of much interest in the film Titanic. The helmsman's action was the opposite of the order given, which dated back to the days when tiller steering was the norm. Apparently the film was correct.

Having started rereading the Elbe No.5 thread linked above, Dom Buckley states in Post #8 (re the actual Titanic, not the film):

'No they weren't [opposite]. First Officer Murdoch gave the correct order, and Helmsman Hichens made the correct helm response. The change from "helm orders" to "wheel orders" came after the 1932 Merchant Shipping Act and was in no way influenced by the Titanic disaster, in which the helm arrangement played no part.'