rotrax
Well-known member
Seen the black oxidation four feet up the wire. Same on old cars too.
Use of "tinned" electrical cable?
- Thread starter coopec
- Start date
Seen the black oxidation four feet up the wire. Same on old cars too.
thinwater
Well-known member
I recall installing AC on my boat a few years ago. Tinned wire, heat sealed connections etc. This likely made sense around the cooling water pump, down in the bilge (though my bilges are dusty-dry).
But when I opened up the unit to connect the power, all non-tinned wire and not a heat-shrink in sight. Without naming names, it was a high-end unit. Are the wires inside your radio tinned? Inside the inverter? Heat shrink? Of course not.
Just sayin'. It depends on the application. In the cabin, for example, if it really matters you have too many leaks and should focus on that. For the battery, bilge and nav lights, yes, all precautions apply.
But when I opened up the unit to connect the power, all non-tinned wire and not a heat-shrink in sight. Without naming names, it was a high-end unit. Are the wires inside your radio tinned? Inside the inverter? Heat shrink? Of course not.
Just sayin'. It depends on the application. In the cabin, for example, if it really matters you have too many leaks and should focus on that. For the battery, bilge and nav lights, yes, all precautions apply.
thinwater
Well-known member
This also depends on how fine the strands are (very finely stranded wire, such as required on an engine or car, is different. The coarser strands of THHN conduit wire are still quite flexible, acceptable under ABYC and USCG, but less vulnerable to corrosion because they are thicker. I'm not a huge fan of finely stranded wire unless required by the application.
The full PS article actually concluded that it depends on the application. Obvious.
PS article on tinned wire.
The full PS article actually concluded that it depends on the application. Obvious.
PS article on tinned wire.
penfold
Well-known member
I too have encountered this; once salt moisture gets on the ends it seems that the cable inevitably suffers high resistance gremlins within a year or two, it presumably travels along by capillary action. It almost seems random, some untinned wire can survive decades in the cabin, other bits deteriorate quickly; perhaps the purity of the copper affects the speed of deterioration.
jwfrary
Well-known member
While the DC cabling on better quality boats is likely to be tinned, in my experiance the AC cabling is usually PVC flex or possibly H07 rubber cable, neither of which are availible in tinned cable.
However, if we were talking 'proper' then we would use ships cable, which is both tinned and the cover material is low smoking and oil resistant. Is also about 10 times the price of either of the more industrial or domestic options.
In reality it's adequate to use the untinned wire for the AC stuff as this is all used in the dry areas of the boat. Probobly the DC stuff would also be fine if and this goes for all wiring anyway the connections are made properly and well protected.
If I was being budget conscious then I'd utilize tinned cable where it needs to be used, in the damp areas of the boat ans external, whereas circuits inside could be untinned automotive type cable.
Capt Popeye
Well-known member
Fred Drift ere : talking of Flex , cable ? whats the experience of using Loudspeaker Flex . cable to run DC 12v items on a Boat ?
I used to have a fair length always left over from Loudspeaker installations , I have used it before for short runs , with VHF . Loudspeakers , Depth Sounders etc
Its most flexiable and usually Twin
Anybody any experiences with it ?
I used to have a fair length always left over from Loudspeaker installations , I have used it before for short runs , with VHF . Loudspeakers , Depth Sounders etc
Its most flexiable and usually Twin
Anybody any experiences with it ?
jwfrary
Well-known member
Speaker cable is not suitable as the insulation is not designed for the use you talking about.
Flex is the common tern for PVC covered 3 core cable, in the UK this would be brown, blue and green/yellow most usually. Availible in 1.5mm 2.5mm 4mm commonly.
This is in contrast to twin and earth which is most definitely not suitable in a boat
thinwater
Well-known member
Question: are block ware problems more common with ...
also, FYI, in the US SAE (automotive) gauge and AWG gauge are slightly differnt (SAE is smaller), and most amp size charts refer to AWG. SAE is used around vehicle engines, where vibration is severe, and THHN is used in conduits and machines (it is often called "machine wire"). Both types are USCG approved.
- finely stranded wire, such as SAE, with 50-75 hair-like strands. If 16 awg the substrands are about 0.005-inch.
- more coarsely stranded THHN conduit wire (20-26 strands). If 16 AWG the substrands are about 0.01-inch.
also, FYI, in the US SAE (automotive) gauge and AWG gauge are slightly differnt (SAE is smaller), and most amp size charts refer to AWG. SAE is used around vehicle engines, where vibration is severe, and THHN is used in conduits and machines (it is often called "machine wire"). Both types are USCG approved.
coopec
N/A
Paul you've never built a boat and you never will because you'd go broke before it was finished.
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Paul you've never built a boat and you never will because you'd go broke before it was finished.
No time to build a boat, while you've been in the garden for 20 years i've been out on the water.
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coopec
N/A
When I read many of the comments on this forum I am reminded of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
"The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people wrongly overestimate their knowledge or ability in a specific area. This tends to occur because a lack of self-awareness prevents them from accurately assessing their own skills..
"The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people wrongly overestimate their knowledge or ability in a specific area. This tends to occur because a lack of self-awareness prevents them from accurately assessing their own skills..
coopec
N/A
Well that would explain why you are so out-of-touch with the real world and it would also explain your attitude to others on the forum.
So you are telling me how to spend my money? Unbelievable!
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penfold
Well-known member
You're building a new boat from scratch; putting untinned wire into that is arguably unwise as the cost difference is very small compared to the total cost. Calling everyone telling you this stupid doesn't change it.
coopec
N/A
I have used tinned cabling on my yacht as I buy almost all my cabling off eBay and they sell tinned.
Did you read comment #1
If not here it is again.(Maybe read earlier comments before commenting )
*********************************************************************
On another forum one forumite was wanting to know how to install an inverter. I related my experience and then stated.
"I wondered how to take the power from the inverter to the microwave, bread-maker and galley bench (power point mounted high up so it doesn't get wet) I decided to use ordinary 10A electrical extension cords secured in place with electrical ties. When a domestic electrician had a look at what I had done he laughed and asked why I did that. He said it would have been much cheaper to use normal house electrical cable (as used by electricians). When I asked if what I had done was unsafe he deferred and said "No""
I had a real chuckle when a couple of forumites went berserk because I used un-tinned electrical extension cords to distribute power.
This is what one "expert" had to say.
"It all depends, do you want an amateur job that a surveyor will pick apart when you sell your boat...and maybe worse.....shock.....fire.....or do you want a proper job?.
First up any good install should be planned, not half assed. Use only tinned stranded wire, both AC and DC, rated for marine application. If anyone tells you to use household wire....disregard anything they have to say, they have no clue.
The case of the inverter should be grounded, with, from memory, one size smaller than the current carrying conductor, no smaller.
The inverter you showed had a AC hard wire connection. So hard wire it to outlets. A GFCI.
A DC supply disconnect should be installed. Support wiring.
Actually sounds like you should talk to someone on the scene....that knows what they are talking about and can look at your install and give you some clues.
Or just toss it in and keep your fingers crossed. All your choice."
How many production boats would use tinned cabling?
*****************************************************************************
I'm quite happy that I've used three untinned extension cords to distribute the 240A power because I have ensured there is no bare cabling to corrode.
Now can we all move on please?
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EugeneR
Well-known member
Well that would explain why you are so out-of-touch with the real world and it would also explain your attitude to others on the forum.
So you are telling me how to spend my money? Unbelievable!
I guess this is why experts such as Paulrainbow, jfm and others give up on sharing their knowledge with the forum. ☹
For what it is worth, I have used non-tinned cables internally with no issues for more than a decade. In the engine room, however, I had to replace heavy duty non-tinned DC cables a few times, usually because the ends got wet and affected up to 2ft of cable, usually preventing reliable engine starting. I would not use non-tinned there again. Not an expert, just some limited practical experience
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coopec
N/A
"usually because the ends got wet and affected up to 2ft of cable, "
Well I wouldn't use tinned unless it was properly protected either.
Of course tinned cable is more corrosive proof than un-tinned but it will still corrode if it gets wet/salty.
coopec
N/A
Paul you've edited Post #70 and deleted the photo of your million dollar launch
Is there any chance of another look at the photo of your launch? (I'm still admiring it)
AngusMcDoon
Well-known member
Here's another psychological tendency you may have heard of : confirmation bias.
coopec
N/A
Yes I'll go along with that.
People who automatically know the answer without bothering to read previous comments
"confirmation bias, people’s tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with their existing beliefs"
Confirmation bias | Definition, Examples, Psychology, & Facts
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geem
Well-known member
That is just not right. If you seek advice in this forum then choose to ignore it then that's fine but don't argue you are right. If you didn't get the advice you wanted you shouldn't have asked. You cannot heat shrink every end terminal on every device. Light fittings often have chocolate block type fittings. There isn't room to add crimp on terminals and heat shrink. These circuits will be susceptible to corrosion if you choose to use none tinned wire. It happened on my previous boat. All wire needed to be stripped out.
If you build your boat and sit in a marina or don't sail in poor weather you may well find you get away with none tinned wire for quite some time. If you have a leak from a hatch, deck fitting, etc and your light fitting gets wet from salt water you will possibly need to strip out your wiring and replace it. This is the kind of thing that does happen. It's why those with many years of cruising experience give you advise to this effect
