petem
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Thanks Paul, that would work.
Thanks Paul, that would work.
Time for me to get another boat!
- Thread starter petem
- Start date
jfm
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Pete I did a 3-way share on Phantom 42 back in 1999, and on my 1st Sq28. 3 is a good number imho. Shares don't have to be equal: my Sq58 was 50-25-25 and later 75-25. We each had one holdall sized bag left on board, but other personal gear was removed. All boat gear (hh nav gear and such like) was shared and left on board. Bedlinens and towels were shared, and laundered in between visits to the boat. We typically allowed 1.5 days for cleaning and turning the boat around (by a 3rd party) between owners. It worked really well, but depends entirely on choosing the right people to share with
Pete I did a 3-way share on Phantom 42 back in 1999, and on my 1st Sq28. 3 is a good number imho. Shares don't have to be equal: my Sq58 was 50-25-25 and later 75-25. We each had one holdall sized bag left on board, but other personal gear was removed. All boat gear (hh nav gear and such like) was shared and left on board. Bedlinens and towels were shared, and laundered in between visits to the boat. We typically allowed 1.5 days for cleaning and turning the boat around (by a 3rd party) between owners. It worked really well, but depends entirely on choosing the right people to share with
Whitelighter
Active member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Pete,
If you come to SCM you can get a panole - a shore based lock up store room were you can keep a whole boats worth of stuff.
They are a little scarce but do come up occasionally. There is also plenty of services for laundering the sheets etc
Pete,
If you come to SCM you can get a panole - a shore based lock up store room were you can keep a whole boats worth of stuff.
They are a little scarce but do come up occasionally. There is also plenty of services for laundering the sheets etc
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Pete, in contrast to jfm, I had a bad experience sharing my first boat with somebody who was at that time was a good friend. We bought a 27ft Searay together and everything went fine for a few weeks but we quickly found out that we had very different ideas on what constituted cruising and proper maintenance. Basically he wanted to potter to the nearest pub and get pissed whilst I wanted to cruise ever further afield. This lead to disagreements about paying for fuel and for what I thought was necessary maintenance. Eventually I agreed to buy him out but we disagreed about the value of the boat and in the end neither of us were happy with the settlement.
What I'm trying to say that if you do enter into a partnership owning a boat make sure that either you are sure that you and your partners have similar attitudes to use of the boat and it's maintenance or there is a detailed agreement that sets out the terms of the partnership
Pete, in contrast to jfm, I had a bad experience sharing my first boat with somebody who was at that time was a good friend. We bought a 27ft Searay together and everything went fine for a few weeks but we quickly found out that we had very different ideas on what constituted cruising and proper maintenance. Basically he wanted to potter to the nearest pub and get pissed whilst I wanted to cruise ever further afield. This lead to disagreements about paying for fuel and for what I thought was necessary maintenance. Eventually I agreed to buy him out but we disagreed about the value of the boat and in the end neither of us were happy with the settlement.
What I'm trying to say that if you do enter into a partnership owning a boat make sure that either you are sure that you and your partners have similar attitudes to use of the boat and it's maintenance or there is a detailed agreement that sets out the terms of the partnership
TwoHooter
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Sounds just like the sort of story you hear from flying groups that go sour. It's so important to make sure that everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet. And with a boat group you will have to keep partners happy as well. With aircraft groups it's often one partner who flies and the other just comes along occasionally for a jolly, usually less and less often once they discover how boring it gets and how grotty the airfield caffs are.
I would say it's better to have a group where the members don't know each other beforehand, because everyone is possibly a bit more inclined to treat it in a businesslike way.
Deleted User - did your agreement not include provision for an independent valuation in the event that one party wanted to buy the other out?
Sounds just like the sort of story you hear from flying groups that go sour. It's so important to make sure that everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet. And with a boat group you will have to keep partners happy as well. With aircraft groups it's often one partner who flies and the other just comes along occasionally for a jolly, usually less and less often once they discover how boring it gets and how grotty the airfield caffs are.
I would say it's better to have a group where the members don't know each other beforehand, because everyone is possibly a bit more inclined to treat it in a businesslike way.
Deleted User - did your agreement not include provision for an independent valuation in the event that one party wanted to buy the other out?
jfm
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
FWIW, I'd always use a texas shootout not a third party valuer. forces a bit of reality into proceedings and is simpler. I quickly reached fair agreement directly with my sharers when buying out the two 25% shares in my first sq58 share scenario, without the risk of some left field answer from a valuer
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
That was 25yrs ago and it was the first boat that either of us had owned. Knowing what I know now of course, I would have insisted on a written agreement
Nope, we had no written agreement between us which was a big mistake. I suppose we felt as we were good friends we wouldn't fall out but we did. When I offered to buy my friend out, to my surprise he wanted the same amount back as he had originally put in but I pointed out that the boat had depreciated in the time we had owned it and that wasn't fair. In the end we settled on a figure somewhere in between what I thought was fair and his initial stake which meant that neither of us were happy
That was 25yrs ago and it was the first boat that either of us had owned. Knowing what I know now of course, I would have insisted on a written agreement
petem
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
What's a Texas shoot out in this context?
Regarding agreement, another Mallorca boat syndicate use this http://www.boatsharemallorca.com/syndicate-agreement that seems like a reasonable starting point.
Pete
What's a Texas shoot out in this context?
Regarding agreement, another Mallorca boat syndicate use this http://www.boatsharemallorca.com/syndicate-agreement that seems like a reasonable starting point.
Pete
MapisM
Well-known member
tico
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Ah thanks MM.. was wondering what was meant.
Strangely enough came across a while back in connection with a Texas business.
Ah thanks MM.. was wondering what was meant.
Strangely enough came across a while back in connection with a Texas business.
Nick_H
Active member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
It's a way of resolving a Mexican Standoff
It's a way of resolving a Mexican Standoff
gjgm
Active member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Edit I should say I was reading a different explanantion to that in MM's link.
Maybe I slightly misunderstand.. if the offer price is rejected, is the other party given the option to buy, or is he obliged to buy? I can't see why someone who wants to sell his 25pct would entertain taking the risk he has to buy the whole damn boat ?!
Edit I should say I was reading a different explanantion to that in MM's link.
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Nick_H
Active member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
According to solicitors I've worked with, the parties seldom resort to the Texas Shoutout even when it's written into the deadlock provisions, because as you say, normally one side only wants to sell and the other only wants to buy. It does force the seller to be sensible on the price though, because the buyer always has the fallback option of invoking the shoutout. I'd say that's a good thing in a boat share arrangement, because the seller is more likely to be unrealistic on price than the buyer ( as per Deleted User's situation), and I think a third party valuer is more likely to value high than low.
According to solicitors I've worked with, the parties seldom resort to the Texas Shoutout even when it's written into the deadlock provisions, because as you say, normally one side only wants to sell and the other only wants to buy. It does force the seller to be sensible on the price though, because the buyer always has the fallback option of invoking the shoutout. I'd say that's a good thing in a boat share arrangement, because the seller is more likely to be unrealistic on price than the buyer ( as per Deleted User's situation), and I think a third party valuer is more likely to value high than low.
ari
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
I think I understand the theory, but how do you decide who has to state the amount, and what do you do if the person stating the amount simply lacks the funds to buy the other out? All very well saying 'if he pitches the price too high then he'll have to buy me out', but if he doesn't have the funds that's a bit of a moot point surely? And doubly so if actually, you don't want to sell, you'd rather buy him out because you want to keep the boat (albeit at a realistic figure).
I think I understand the theory, but how do you decide who has to state the amount, and what do you do if the person stating the amount simply lacks the funds to buy the other out? All very well saying 'if he pitches the price too high then he'll have to buy me out', but if he doesn't have the funds that's a bit of a moot point surely? And doubly so if actually, you don't want to sell, you'd rather buy him out because you want to keep the boat (albeit at a realistic figure).
petem
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
I can't write a fuller answer on my phone but my recollection of playing poker as a lad was that playing poker with people with more money than me or better bluffers is a bad idea.
I can't write a fuller answer on my phone but my recollection of playing poker as a lad was that playing poker with people with more money than me or better bluffers is a bad idea.
MapisM
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
playing poker is a bad idea, period.
If I may put it in simpler terms (considering that there's always someone with more money and/or better bluffers - same as with bigger boats, really):
playing poker is a bad idea, period.
jfm
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Nick, love the Mexican standoff comment!!
You're right. I've done transactions with Texas shootouts often but apart from one occasion in my work life plus plus one boat share split up, I cant think of anyone actually invoking the shootout. Its function is to impose realism and fairness in the negotiation of a fair price (fair to both sides) of the leaver's price and it works well for that. In contrast the cases I've see where people resort to a valuer often end up in a mess or at least one very unhappy side, often because of a shoddy or ill-informed/badly briefed output from the valuer
Nick, love the Mexican standoff comment!!
You're right. I've done transactions with Texas shootouts often but apart from one occasion in my work life plus plus one boat share split up, I cant think of anyone actually invoking the shootout. Its function is to impose realism and fairness in the negotiation of a fair price (fair to both sides) of the leaver's price and it works well for that. In contrast the cases I've see where people resort to a valuer often end up in a mess or at least one very unhappy side, often because of a shoddy or ill-informed/badly briefed output from the valuer
petem
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
It's been a little while since my last post so I thought an update was due.
The boat sharing route is definitely the one I would like to follow. It just makes no sense to by one on my own and in doing so push myself financially for a boat that will spend 48 weeks a year in its berth.
To get some ideas of how I might get my syndicate up and running I've spoke to a couple of people involved in such things.
First I spoke to Ross Smith of www.boatsharefinder.co.uk. Ross is part of a sailing syndicate and is interested in boat sharing from a Social Enterprise perspective (he founded "How's My Driving?"). He has a number of owners advertising on his site and was pretty bullish that I'd be able to set up a syndicate from scratch. Those looking to sell shares in their boat / syndicate can place a free ad on his site, his only stipulation is that people make a voluntary contribution (min £50) to one of the marine charities that they support.
Next I spoke to Simon Maunder who owns www.yacht-share.net and owns shares in a couple of big boat syndicates in Mallorca. He was rather more sceptical about my chances of setting up a new syndicate without having an existing boat or partner(s). His recommendation would be to buy a share in one of their existing syndicates, e.g. 1/6 share in Princess 65 for £55k or 1/8 share in a Sq52 for £25k. Whilst the idea of boating in a 65 footer is tempting I am concerned about fuel and visitor berthing costs. Simon is well versed in man maths and made the point that the bigger the boat, the more likely you are to pootle and therefore a lower the fuel burn. Simon also believes that larger syndicates are better for a boat as it will be more intensively cleaned and maintained. He also warned that a small syndicate with a big difference in the usage levels can lead to tension.
Simon also mentioned that he knows an Azimut 42 owner looking to sell one or two shares in his boat. This sounded like it might fit me well (the Az42 having legendary low fuel burn) however the boat is berthed in Portals so annual costs are likely to be prohibitive (I'm aiming at sub £5k). He also tried to sell me shares in a Ferretti 150 owned by a very genuine chap! Sadly Jez's boat is a little older than I'd like so I've told Jez it's not for me. With hindsight, had I not have had family health issues last year I might have been a bit more proactive and encouraged Jez to buy something that would suit me too.
So I'm going to persevere and attempt to set up my own small syndicate. With my maximum budget of c.£60k I just need to find someone to commit (c.£25k) to a third share which would enable us to purchase a nice Az39 (for around cost c.£75k). We'd keep it in SCM with the potential to move it to Mallorca once the third and potentially fourth share are sold. If I can find someone willing to chip in the same as me then we'd be in Phantom 40 territory (which is what I'd really like). We could then dilute further to thirds or quarters to claw back some cash and reduce ongoing costs. Assuming an Az39 or Phantom 40 with three sharing we'd be looking at annual costs in the £3-4k range (SCM) or £5-6k (Mallorca) each. You can see my first attempt at an advert here http://www.boatsharefinder.co.uk/detail.aspx?id=c68906e0-0c84-425b-94b4-89de4c45a688. I've mentioned that the boat isn't purchase yet however Deleted User thinks it needs to be clearer so I need to do more work on it. In the next version I might switch to an Az39 and ask for a £25k commitment.
As I've said before, I'm not in any rush. I'd rather take my time and find the right boat and the right people to share with, even if that means I don't do something this year.
Needless to say, if anyone is interested in joining me, please let me know. Or if you have a Med based Az39/42, Phantom 40/3 or Princess 38 and wish to sell a share, please get in touch.
It's been a little while since my last post so I thought an update was due.
The boat sharing route is definitely the one I would like to follow. It just makes no sense to by one on my own and in doing so push myself financially for a boat that will spend 48 weeks a year in its berth.
To get some ideas of how I might get my syndicate up and running I've spoke to a couple of people involved in such things.
First I spoke to Ross Smith of www.boatsharefinder.co.uk. Ross is part of a sailing syndicate and is interested in boat sharing from a Social Enterprise perspective (he founded "How's My Driving?"). He has a number of owners advertising on his site and was pretty bullish that I'd be able to set up a syndicate from scratch. Those looking to sell shares in their boat / syndicate can place a free ad on his site, his only stipulation is that people make a voluntary contribution (min £50) to one of the marine charities that they support.
Next I spoke to Simon Maunder who owns www.yacht-share.net and owns shares in a couple of big boat syndicates in Mallorca. He was rather more sceptical about my chances of setting up a new syndicate without having an existing boat or partner(s). His recommendation would be to buy a share in one of their existing syndicates, e.g. 1/6 share in Princess 65 for £55k or 1/8 share in a Sq52 for £25k. Whilst the idea of boating in a 65 footer is tempting I am concerned about fuel and visitor berthing costs. Simon is well versed in man maths and made the point that the bigger the boat, the more likely you are to pootle and therefore a lower the fuel burn. Simon also believes that larger syndicates are better for a boat as it will be more intensively cleaned and maintained. He also warned that a small syndicate with a big difference in the usage levels can lead to tension.
Simon also mentioned that he knows an Azimut 42 owner looking to sell one or two shares in his boat. This sounded like it might fit me well (the Az42 having legendary low fuel burn) however the boat is berthed in Portals so annual costs are likely to be prohibitive (I'm aiming at sub £5k). He also tried to sell me shares in a Ferretti 150 owned by a very genuine chap! Sadly Jez's boat is a little older than I'd like so I've told Jez it's not for me. With hindsight, had I not have had family health issues last year I might have been a bit more proactive and encouraged Jez to buy something that would suit me too.
So I'm going to persevere and attempt to set up my own small syndicate. With my maximum budget of c.£60k I just need to find someone to commit (c.£25k) to a third share which would enable us to purchase a nice Az39 (for around cost c.£75k). We'd keep it in SCM with the potential to move it to Mallorca once the third and potentially fourth share are sold. If I can find someone willing to chip in the same as me then we'd be in Phantom 40 territory (which is what I'd really like). We could then dilute further to thirds or quarters to claw back some cash and reduce ongoing costs. Assuming an Az39 or Phantom 40 with three sharing we'd be looking at annual costs in the £3-4k range (SCM) or £5-6k (Mallorca) each. You can see my first attempt at an advert here http://www.boatsharefinder.co.uk/detail.aspx?id=c68906e0-0c84-425b-94b4-89de4c45a688. I've mentioned that the boat isn't purchase yet however Deleted User thinks it needs to be clearer so I need to do more work on it. In the next version I might switch to an Az39 and ask for a £25k commitment.
As I've said before, I'm not in any rush. I'd rather take my time and find the right boat and the right people to share with, even if that means I don't do something this year.
Needless to say, if anyone is interested in joining me, please let me know. Or if you have a Med based Az39/42, Phantom 40/3 or Princess 38 and wish to sell a share, please get in touch.
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jfm
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Great plan pete
My original syndicate was just done with mby classifieds
I think in the add you're stating too many rules. Don't state the rules for allocating weeks, and anyway the system you propose looks longwinded. We used to just rotate the bank hols and for rest of year we allocated every third week then each owner had his currency that he could swap with others. No-one ever used the weeks they got allocated because it was merely a currency
Also I don't think you should stipulate SCM then Baldricks. Too complex. Stop messing around and say it is going to baldricks, end of. If I read that ad wanting a share as I did back in 1999, I'd right you off as too much of a rule maker. Just saying it as I see it - best of luck
Great plan pete
My original syndicate was just done with mby classifieds
I think in the add you're stating too many rules. Don't state the rules for allocating weeks, and anyway the system you propose looks longwinded. We used to just rotate the bank hols and for rest of year we allocated every third week then each owner had his currency that he could swap with others. No-one ever used the weeks they got allocated because it was merely a currency
Also I don't think you should stipulate SCM then Baldricks. Too complex. Stop messing around and say it is going to baldricks, end of. If I read that ad wanting a share as I did back in 1999, I'd right you off as too much of a rule maker. Just saying it as I see it - best of luck
rafiki_
Well-known member
Re: Time for me to get another boat! - shared ownership
Pete, I may be a little off piste, but if you area able to buy an Az39 for £75k, I would expect you will need to budget another £10k-£20k for fettle, and refurb, especially is you are sharing the boat. I would think that a boat sharer will have little interest or expectation in spending their precious time share refurbing the boat themselves, expecting to arrive and drive. While I bought in the UK, I spent quite a bit more than this on my boat purchase, and on getting her to a condition that we are happy with. You will be remote, so expect to pay a local techie to do the bits and pieces you would normally do yourself. I think you might want another think about the budget.
Pete, I may be a little off piste, but if you area able to buy an Az39 for £75k, I would expect you will need to budget another £10k-£20k for fettle, and refurb, especially is you are sharing the boat. I would think that a boat sharer will have little interest or expectation in spending their precious time share refurbing the boat themselves, expecting to arrive and drive. While I bought in the UK, I spent quite a bit more than this on my boat purchase, and on getting her to a condition that we are happy with. You will be remote, so expect to pay a local techie to do the bits and pieces you would normally do yourself. I think you might want another think about the budget.
