The pro's and cons of steel boat building

Status
Not open for further replies.
Brent Swain said:
There are photos online of the steel boat Gringo " after she had been T boned amidships by a freighter.
No leaks.
Then there are several of a steel boat off S Africa which had a humpback whale land on her deck . Still no leaks. There are a couple of references. Then you can search Silas Crosby ,and Tagish for more references.
I'm sure the Sleavin family disaster and the Cabo disaster can also be found online.More references.
There was a book on the Pygmalion story ,possibly only available in French .Another reference. Then there are Moitessier's books ,more references.
I was moored alongside a big, "state of the art "mega racer in Cabo in 88 called Pandemonium. Roughly a year later, I saw a photo in Latitude 38 of her upside down, half way to Hawaii .Her keel had fallen off, another reference.
Click to expand...

The steel motor yacht called ‘Steel’ t boned by a massive Antigua week racing yacht massive damage but steel was not breached and I believe sailed back across the pond for repairs
 
robertj said:
I agree totally with that Brent.
I am never totally at ease trying to get sleep on a night passage. The collision niggle is always there. If I were to have a steel boat I would be easier but never totally at ease.
Click to expand...

So, steel or not steel, you are not at ease sleeping at night in case of a collision. In which case the hull material is irrelevant because if you are run down and there is a breach, your main worry is that you will drown, trapped inside your steel or GRP hull. Hence, the debate around steel or GRP is moot. Which brings us back to why GRP is popular.
 
Brent Swain said:
I have never claimed that plastic boaters are mad ,just that steel is sometimes a better, safer choice.
Click to expand...

Nice to see you back. I'd be grateful if you could give a minute or two to answering the question posed before:given that you now say that steel is only "sometimes a better, safer choice" than GRP, could you let us know when, in your opinion, GRP is a better safer choice than steel?

Thanks in advance.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
So, steel or not steel, you are not at ease sleeping at night in case of a collision. In which case the hull material is irrelevant because if you are run down and there is a breach, your main worry is that you will drown, trapped inside your steel or GRP hull. Hence, the debate around steel or GRP is moot. Which brings us back to why GRP is popular.
Click to expand...

?
 
Brent Swain said:
I have posted my clearance paper out of f Hilo Hawaii, showing all previous ports on that trip alone , along with pictures of me and my boats in many tropical ports, etc etc. Cant get my passports to post here, with all the stamps, too big. None of my critics have posted any such solid proof that they have ever sailed anywhere, or ever left their mother's basement .
Click to expand...

As I understand your story you've hit reefs and survived. Hit steel barges, tug boats and freighters and survived. Surely you must've learnt some lessons as a result of those incidents other than Steel is Best. How did those incidents come about? What would you have done differently to avoid them. Would a better anchor have helped? Which rules of the IRPCS were breached in the collisions? By whom? Surely there are lessons from a lifetime of sailing that would benefit readers of this forum.
 
 
I am beginning to worry about steel yachts on two counts:


  • Brent refuses to answer any direct question about the design of the boat he builds including some engineering questions I've asked; and
  • Steel boats appear to get into all sorts of dangers, from being scraped over coral reefs to being T boned by freighters

This leads me to the conclusion purely based on Brent's posts alone never to sail on a steel yacht in the future as they appear to be a disaster magnet.

I wonder why building yachts in steel is done by the minority of boat builders?
 
Sandy said:
I am beginning to worry about steel yachts on two counts:


  • Brent refuses to answer any direct question about the design of the boat he builds including some engineering questions I've asked; and
  • Steel boats appear to get into all sorts of dangers, from being scraped over coral reefs to being T boned by freighters

This leads me to the conclusion purely based on Brent's posts alone never to sail on a steel yacht in the future as they appear to be a disaster magnet.

I wonder why building yachts in steel is done by the minority of boat builders?
Click to expand...

I'm always mindful of what materials the designers select for racing yacht construction. They seem to successfully race in the most inhospitable places around the globe, at 20+ kts without disintegrating en-mass.

A few years later, those same materials and processes find their way into mainstream building. (Think Aramids)
 
Achosenman said:
I'm always mindful of what materials the designers select for racing yacht construction. They seem to successfully race in the most inhospitable places around the globe, at 20+ kts without disintegrating en-mass.
Click to expand...

Chay Blythe's Challenge business used steel yachts (67', then 72') but I think all these commercial ventures now use GRP.
 
JumbleDuck said:
Chay Blythe's Challenge business used steel yachts (67', then 72') but I think all these commercial ventures now use GRP.
Click to expand...

As materials and design improve, it's not really surprising. E.G, ABS, fly/drive by wire and FADEC systems for engine management, were exotic aviation systems back in the day. They're all in common use on run of the mill cars now.

Maritime practices evolve like every other field of endeavor. Modern materials, despite looking flimsy to Mr/Mrs Joe public, are astoundingly strong for their designed purpose.

I remember the old flak jackets. Thick, heavy, sweaty and would barely stop harsh words. The modern composite equivalent weighs 50%, is a fraction of the thickness and will stop an armour piercing bullet. Not a bit of metal in sight.
 
Achosenman said:
I'm always mindful of what materials the designers select for racing yacht construction. They seem to successfully race in the most inhospitable places around the globe, at 20+ kts without disintegrating en-mass.
Click to expand...


Do they??

https://www.sailingworld.com/moments-impact#page-2

[h=4]Alex Thompson, 11.16.16; Location: South Atlantic; Damage: Sheared foil; continued racing[/h][h=4]Thomas Ruyant, 12.19.16; Location: Tasman Sea; Damage: Cracked hull; Retired[/h][h=4]Sebastien Josse, 12.5.16; Location: Southern Ocean; Damage: Broken foil; Retired[/h][h=4]Vincent Riou, 11.20.16; Location: South Altlantic; Damage: Broken keel box; Retired[/h][h=4]Morgan Lagravière 11.24.16; Location: Cape of Good Hope; Damage: Sheared rudder; Retired[/h][h=4]Kito de Pavant 12.6.16; Location: Cape of Good Hope; Damage: Broken keel; Retired[/h]
 
GHA said:
Do they??

https://www.sailingworld.com/moments-impact#page-2

[h=4]Alex Thompson, 11.16.16; Location: South Atlantic; Damage: Sheared foil; continued racing[/h][h=4]Thomas Ruyant, 12.19.16; Location: Tasman Sea; Damage: Cracked hull; Retired[/h][h=4]Sebastien Josse, 12.5.16; Location: Southern Ocean; Damage: Broken foil; Retired[/h][h=4]Vincent Riou, 11.20.16; Location: South Altlantic; Damage: Broken keel box; Retired[/h][h=4]Morgan Lagravière 11.24.16; Location: Cape of Good Hope; Damage: Sheared rudder; Retired[/h][h=4]Kito de Pavant 12.6.16; Location: Cape of Good Hope; Damage: Broken keel; Retired[/h]
Click to expand...

So having competed at speeds and stresses the rest of us will never get near in our cruising endeavors, no one sank, disintegrates or caused the wrath of the gods to descended upon them.
Nothing you mention happened without the design limits being exceeded. Nothing is unbreakable. It matters not whether it is a gen 6 fighter, unlimited aerobatic wonder plane or a cutting edge race boat. The operators know there is a limit and sometimes they push a little too hard.

If I was going run aground, hit rocks, reefs or solid bits of land regularly, I'd probably question my suitability to skipper anything bigger than a bath tub toy.
The hysterical "GRP is a death trap" mentality shown by the Op is nothing more than irrational fear given free reign. I suspect in part, driven by the quest for business.
 
Achosenman said:
So having competed at speeds and stresses the rest of us will never get near in our cruising endeavors, no one sank, disintegrates or caused the wrath of the gods to descended upon them.
Nothing you mention happened without the design limits being exceeded. Nothing is unbreakable. It matters not whether it is a gen 6 fighter, unlimited aerobatic wonder plane or a cutting edge race boat. The operators know there is a limit and sometimes they push a little too hard.
Click to expand...

They seem to successfully race in the most inhospitable places around the globe, at 20+ kts without disintegrating en-mass
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

They hit things, they break. Steel bounces. The oceans have a lot of debris floating around in them. Your argument is a non starter.

Thankfully not many people hit things crossing oceans but it does happen. Chances of just needing a lick of paint afterwards are way higher in steel than grp.

So we're back to long term, long distance, off the beaten track being maybe the only place where steel really starts to have many plus points.
 
GHA said:
They hit things, they break. Steel bounces. The oceans have a lot of debris floating around in them. Your argument is a non starter.

Thankfully not many people hit things crossing oceans but it does happen. Chances of just needing a lick of paint afterwards are way higher in steel than grp.

So we're back to long term, long distance, off the beaten track being maybe the only place where steel really starts to have many plus points.
Click to expand...

I think long term, steel is a nightmare. Long distance is off the list as well, since GRP is more than capable, but it does depend on where.

Steel doesn't always bounce, there are many thousands of steel boats at the bottom that prove the point.
Conversely, GRP seems to bounce better than most believe, as demonstrated by the YT video. Prior to seeing that, I wonder what odds most sailors would have given for that outcome.

I don't believe steel is done by a long chalk, but it's only a matter of time.
 
GHA said:
So we're back to long term, long distance, off the beaten track being the only place where steel starts to have plus points.
Click to expand...


There-corrected that for you!

I chose the next best thing to a metal boat-note metal, not neccessarily steel-and purchased a heavy well constructed GRP boat with a fully encapsulated keel.

BS does seem paranoid about safety at sea in small boats.

IMHO, sailing offshore is SO much safer than my previous life of motorsport.
 
john_morris_uk said:
Brent you need to be very careful about making sweeping statement suggesting ‘most of your critics’ couldn’t even ‘prove’ their sailing experience. I personally know some of the people on these forums who are critical of you and they are very experienced sailors. Throw away insults do you no favours.
____________________________________________________________________________
Yes I have been told there are many here with -plenty of offshore experience and I don't doubt them
What proof have you asked them to post?
None whatsoever!
What evidence would you consider proof?
None whatsoever!
You have made that clear.
No evidence has been posted which shows them to have any more than me, or any at all. None that they ever left home port. But I don't accuse them of lying, as you do me, despite all I have posted to the contrary.
Some of my passports state yacht in transit , crew one, me. Cant post them here .
_________________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________________

The problem I have with your ‘evidence’ is firstly a load of pictures from quite a few years ago isn’t very convincing. I’ve got pictures of me sailing or on boats in various parts of the world going back over fifty years. I don’t think it ‘proves’ anything. My passports show stamps where I’ve cleared in and out of places almost everywhere including various Antarctic territories (or claimed territories) but some of those were when I was on ships and not yachts. It proves nothing. I’d never show them or publish them as doing so is childish IMHO but mainly because the real problem for me is that people who fabricate stories or ‘embroider the truth’ a little are often those who volunteer or come up with more and more reasons to show why their story really is true. A general principle is that those who lie have the most detailed stories. I’m extremely wary of people who protest too much. In the past you’ve claimed multiple ocean crossings but it doesn’t ring true and showing old and faded photographs certainly doesn’t support your case.

_________________________________________________________________________________
You remind me of when I was building my first boat. I hitched a ride with an old Scot who claimed to be a seaman. He told stories of fishing up north in 120 footers in winter weather. When I told him I planned to sail my 36 footer to New Zealand he said it is foolhardy to go to sea in anything under 120 feet, and I had no chance of making it very far. When I mentioned that Eric Hiscock had circumnavigated twice in a 30 footer, and that Guzwell had done it in a 20 footer, and Slocum in an engineless 38 footer, he said
"Stories , lies, never happened!"
You a sound a lot like him.
_________________________________________________________________________
I’m not suggesting you’ve never been to these places. I’m happy to believe that you’ve made an ocean passage at some time in your past. However I do have doubts about how much sailing you’ve done because you don’t talk about sailing much or anything else except how wonderful YOUR designs and YOUR construction is. If you reply to this, instead of immediately going into a rant about how people don’t believe you, and the whole sailing world is against you, (or questioning my experience) try and write with the balance that sailing as many miles as you claim you have would bring to most people.
____________________________________________________________________________
So what do you suggest? That I state that all I have learned in over 40 years of building, designing living aboard and maintaining steel boats is wrong, and those who have none of that steel boat experience are right, including those who have never owned, lived aboard, built , crossed ocean in or maintained a steel boat for decades ,have it right? That they know more about what I have done in the last 45 years than I do?
I don't see you posting statements that everything you believe in , or have posted, is wrong and that everything your critics have posted, is right!
You suggest that I stick to posting what I don't believe, and what I believe, based on over 40 years of steel boat building , cruising, ocean crossing and living aboard and maintaining is wrong. You sound like the school teacher who ordered me to lie , in order to be marked "right."
___________________________________________________________________________
I’m interested that you quote (rather selectively) from the metal boat website because there are differing opinions on there too. Also you have three or four pet stories about disasters to metal or GRP boats that you keep coming back to. Unfortunately for you, lots of people have many more positive experiences of boats built of GRP or wood and your slack handful of disasters are known to be exceptional and not the norm.
__________________________________________________________________________________
I don't see you posting things which contradict your posts.
Yes ,I could post the entire thread of other sites, if you want,but that would mean many, many pages , months worth, to entirely clog this site completely, if that is what you are asking for. Seems you are!
I just had a nice broad reach in 18 knots of wind on the quarter , under sunny skies ,to a nice deserted beach. Puttered for several days, friends showed up, and had some nice visits and pot lucks. You suggest I should have spent the whole time at a computer screen instead ? Not chance ! Your values , not mine!
Yours is not the only site on the web. Others appreciate someone offering better ,more affordable ways of doing things, and don't flood suggestions with attacks and piling on.
I am grossly outnumbed by hecklers who have nothing useful to offer, and nothing better to do but spend their entire days attacking any designated target .
The internet used to be a great place to exchange ideas and new ways of doing things . That is quickly drawing to a close.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Like some others on here, I freely and readily agree that steel has its merits. For some sorts of sailing it even might be the preferred option for hull construction. However it’s NOT the answer for the majority of people and neither is backyard boat building. There’s a tiny niche market for boats designed and built in the way you suggest and all your ranting and raving isn’t going to make it any bigger. In fact as others have pointed out, you’re in danger of turning people away if you keep arguing the way you do. Start acknowledging the problems of steel construction in a reasoned and balanced way and people might listen to you more readily.
Click to expand...

I have never claimed that steel boats are for everyone. Those are your words, not mine. Anyone listing ANY advantages of steel, is instantly accused of claiming that they are for everyone, a cure all for everything. By that, you imply that steel has Zero advantage in any use,and that plastic is the only option. Now THAT is a lie!
 
You claim to have a lot of offshore cruising experience.
What evidence have you posted to prove that, since you have already stated that no evidence is acceptable as proof?
What reason have you given us to believe you have any offshore cruising experience ,have ever left home port , and haven't made it all up? You have given us no reason whatever , to believe you ,especially since you have stated that NO evidence is adequate proof?
(Equal opportunity proof? No answer, means you have none .Deleting this post means you have none, and are trying to hide something)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Other threads that may be of interest

Frogmogman
My next boat.
2 3
Replies
40
Views
1K
fredrussell
F

Share this page

Top