The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[Brent Swain]

"Big problem, especially on aluminium boats, on which it is hard to find an antifouling which wont eat the aluminium.
Was in Samoa with fouling problems. Could be hard on the wind to Tonga.So I pulled a big poly tarp under the boat, and let it float up against the hull.Then I poured a gallon of bleach in ,and let it soak overnight. Next day, all the fouling fell off, leaving a super clean hull."


Tosh, absolute tosh. There are numerous AFs designed for aluminium boats. I sailed on several big ali racers in the 1970s and not one of them had its hull eaten away.
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RCMP catamarans here are looking like Swiss cheese.
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BTW, your environmental credentials .... bleach poured willy-nilly into a fragile environment in Polynesia ? ? ?

Locals are dong it all the time, as are most urban land dwellers . Chlorine reacts quickly becoming quickly neutralized , What is salt? Reacted NaCl, a chlorine compound. What is your solution to that situation?
NONE!
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And your anchoring technique makes you a total liability and risk to other boats if your anchor fails to grab.

Cruise BC, where you have plenty of room. Your solution is to not know if it is set, until the middle of the night .
When did I ever advise pointing your bow at another boat, when setting the anchor?

 

[Brent Swain]

It is not good form to try and humiliate anyone because they won't back off from a point of view.

The position regarding the integrity of GRP for the high seas has been argued well by folks. Rather than trying to get Brent Swain to convert to the majority view stated in this thread, or justify his claims, people should realise that Brent Swain is, to say the least, tenacious regarding his beliefs: that GRP sailors in deep sea are mad or nervous wrecks as demonstrated by his belief in the frequency of GRP yachts missing on the high sea.

Personally I feel the thread should be left to die off as some posters expectations of getting a result from Brent Swain, I am confident, will not be met. What's left to say, SFA I think.

I have never claimed that plastic boaters are mad ,just that steel is sometimes a better, safer choice.
YOU are claiming that plastic is totally infallible, because those who sail them are totally infallible.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And your anchoring technique makes you a total liability and risk to other boats if your anchor fails to grab.

It might explain why he and his clients spend so much of their time pounding on rocks, though a belief that navigation is Bowing To The Man seems an equally likely possibility.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have never claimed that plastic boaters are mad ,just that steel is sometimes a better, safer choice. .

When do you think steel is not a safer choice?

 

[alant]

"Big problem, especially on aluminium boats, on which it is hard to find an antifouling which wont eat the aluminium.
Was in Samoa with fouling problems. Could be hard on the wind to Tonga.So I pulled a big poly tarp under the boat, and let it float up against the hull.Then I poured a gallon of bleach in ,and let it soak overnight. Next day, all the fouling fell off, leaving a super clean hull."


Tosh, absolute tosh. There are numerous AFs designed for aluminium boats. I sailed on several big ali racers in the 1970s and not one of them had its hull eaten away.

BTW, your environmental credentials .... bleach poured willy-nilly into a fragile environment in Polynesia ? ? ?


And your anchoring technique makes you a total liability and risk to other boats if your anchor fails to grab.

Bleach = caustic, not a good bed companion for aluminium, even if a good anodized surface.

 

[lpdsn]

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There, that should be enough to keep the full time hobby hecklers, screaming for days.
I really see no reason to believe YOU have any experience, whatsoever, on the subjects you attack me on.ZERO experience! You say you do? I say you are lying, just as you accuse me of doing!You are a targeting heckler, stalking me across the internet. Sure would love to met you.
Are you just another teenager, in your mothers basement , masquerading as someone who has 'Expertise, in things you know little about.
Or is this just another alias for "Smackdaddy" the "Expert" guy who lost his Catalina, by tying her up bow on to a concrete dock with no spring lines, in a very exposed location? The guy who has spent years trying to drink, and brag up the nerve to leave the intercoastal waterway, and do the death defying crossing, 90 miles to the Bahamas? So give us the equivalent proof to that which I have posted ,that you have any steel boat cruising, building, maintaining , and living aboard experience that I have posted.

Ah, I was hoping for better, more adult, response than that. Here's a challenge for you. Put the Steel is Better theme on the back burner for a while. Just start posting on other threads expressing opinions or giving info based on your experience. Try anchoring techniques, for example, as a starter. Try 200 posts before you come back to the Steel is Best theme. You might even end up taking part in the forum and getting accepted. There are a few people here who have pet themes but they do post about other things too.

 

[DownWest]

Ah, I was hoping for better, more adult, response than that. Here's a challenge for you. Put the Steel is Better theme on the back burner for a while. Just start posting on other threads expressing opinions or giving info based on your experience. Try anchoring techniques, for example, as a starter. Try 200 posts before you come back to the Steel is Best theme. You might even end up taking part in the forum and getting accepted. There are a few people here who have pet themes but they do post about other things too.

+1, good idea.

 

[NormanS]

Ah, I was hoping for better, more adult, response than that. Here's a challenge for you. Put the Steel is Better theme on the back burner for a while. Just start posting on other threads expressing opinions or giving info based on your experience. Try anchoring techniques, for example, as a starter. Try 200 posts before you come back to the Steel is Best theme. You might even end up taking part in the forum and getting accepted. There are a few people here who have pet themes but they do post about other things too.

What a superior attitude!

Can we assume from that, that you make 200 postings on things about which you know nothing, between occasional posts on subjects on which you may have actual practical knowledge and experience?

 

[prv]

Can we assume from that, that you make 200 postings on things about which you know nothing, between occasional posts on subjects on which you may have actual practical knowledge and experience?

You're saying that Brent knows nothing about anything except STEEL IS BEST ?

Pete

 

[NormanS]

You're saying that Brent knows nothing about anything except STEEL IS BEST ?

Pete

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? I've no idea about the range of his knowledge. What I didn't like was the suggestion that he be required to post on 200 other subjects, before coming back to his pet one.

I only post here on a fairly limited range of topics. I was unaware of the requirement to have knowledge, or at least an opinion on all subjects.

Actually, as one who HAS BUILT a steel yacht, I am interested in his origami methods, about which he probably has more knowledge than anyone else here.

When I built a steel yacht, an Alan Pale designed, multi-chine 33footer, the hull was built upside down, by making and erecting frames, then chine bars, then fitting each shell plate to the chines. This was quite a long and laborious building method, which although cheap, took quite a while. I think the finished article probably looked better than one made by the origami method, but I would be the last person to try to curb his obvious enthusiasm.

If people don't like his posts, there are two things that they can do:- stop reading them, and stop replying.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Then there are several of a steel boat off S Africa which had a humpback whale land on her deck . Still no leaks.

There is only one reference to a boat intrepid having a Southern right whale breach and land on the boat.

The owner is an acquaintance of mine so know all about it so get your story straight.

 

[prv]

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? I've no idea about the range of his knowledge. What I didn't like was the suggestion that he be required to post on 200 other subjects, before coming back to his pet one.

In post #368 you expanded "200 posts on other subjects" to "200 posts on subjects which the author knows nothing about".

Pete

 

[NormanS]

In post #368 you expanded "200 posts on other subjects" to "200 posts on subjects which the author knows nothing about".

Pete

Read the post, and you will see that it is not addressed to Brent Swain. The person to whom it is addressed is demanding that he makes 200 other posts, before returning to his pet subject. Does this apply to everyone?

 

[Robin]

Read the post, and you will see that it is not addressed to Brent Swain. The person to whom it is addressed is demanding that he makes 200 other posts, before returning to his pet subject. Does this apply to everyone?

simple enough, it just suggests that a more all round poster gets listened to more than a highly prejudiced one trick pony

 

[Deleted member 36384]

simple enough, it just suggests that a more all round poster gets listened to more than a highly prejudiced one trick pony

But no one needs to have credentials verified or to prove themselves on a forum like this: you log on, you post, thats it. The large forum population is such that it self corrects wrong information and weeds out bullshit.

 

[lpdsn]

What a superior attitude!

Can we assume from that, that you make 200 postings on things about which you know nothing, between occasional posts on subjects on which you may have actual practical knowledge and experience?

You don't do reading comprehension then. No worries, I won't suggest you post on that then.

I challenged BS to post about sailing. Whatever he's gleaned from his claimed very extensive cruising experience. I'm not trying to constrain what he posts about in any way, just suggesting he gets away from his single topic to date. I'm suggesting we open the floor to him.

You may believe he knows nothing about sailing. I've certainly seen that alleged elsewhere. I suspect that but am trying to keep an open mind.

 

[lpdsn]

Read the post, and you will see that it is not addressed to Brent Swain. The person to whom it is addressed is demanding that he makes 200 other posts, before returning to his pet subject. Does this apply to everyone?

Where the hell did you find demanding except at the back of your own mind.

 

[DownWest]

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? I've no idea about the range of his knowledge. What I didn't like was the suggestion that he be required to post on 200 other subjects, before coming back to his pet one.

I only post here on a fairly limited range of topics. I was unaware of the requirement to have knowledge, or at least an opinion on all subjects.

Actually, as one who HAS BUILT a steel yacht, I am interested in his origami methods, about which he probably has more knowledge than anyone else here.

When I built a steel yacht, an Alan Pale designed, multi-chine 33footer, the hull was built upside down, by making and erecting frames, then chine bars, then fitting each shell plate to the chines. This was quite a long and laborious building method, which although cheap, took quite a while. I think the finished article probably looked better than one made by the origami method, but I would be the last person to try to curb his obvious enthusiasm.

If people don't like his posts, there are two things that they can do:- stop reading them, and stop replying.

Couple of comments. BS had a rough time on other forums and seems to carry his problems onto this one, hence the accusations of people he had problems with before, posting here under new identities (SmackDaddy ???) The origami system is, as he admits, not his idea, and has been used for aluminium yachts as well. What I did get a bit riled about was his claims about how fast he works. 'A skin fitting in one minute'? He reckoned he could drill the hole, cut the tube and weld it in 60 seconds. Plus, 90% faster than '1950s' methods of building. Origami is a bit quicker than conventional chine methods, but is limited to certain lengths.
You experience of building a 33 upside down from an Alan Pale (Pape?) design is valid; But others have built Van de Staht 34's right way up in times that are not much longer than BS's claims (I know of one). And that is just the hull and deck. The rest is much the same, depending on ones idea of comfort.
Rig.. you CAN salvage second hand gear and go sailing. Fine for a very small corner of the fraternity, but, as endlessly pointed out, not for most.
The reality is, very few will go the steel homebuild route now. It is no longer cheap and, if one wants to GO, there are more decent yachts than one can count for sale. I think I mentioned a really nice steel yawl earlier. In ready to go cruising condition, forward plating extra thick for high latitudes, the owners too old to continue. No offers on £8k...

 

[NormanS]

Couple of comments. BS had a rough time on other forums and seems to carry his problems onto this one, hence the accusations of people he had problems with before, posting here under new identities (SmackDaddy ???) The origami system is, as he admits, not his idea, and has been used for aluminium yachts as well. What I did get a bit riled about was his claims about how fast he works. 'A skin fitting in one minute'? He reckoned he could drill the hole, cut the tube and weld it in 60 seconds. Plus, 90% faster than '1950s' methods of building. Origami is a bit quicker than conventional chine methods, but is limited to certain lengths.
You experience of building a 33 upside down from an Alan Pale (Pape?) design is valid; But others have built Van de Staht 34's right way up in times that are not much longer than BS's claims (I know of one). And that is just the hull and deck. The rest is much the same, depending on ones idea of comfort.
Rig.. you CAN salvage second hand gear and go sailing. Fine for a very small corner of the fraternity, but, as endlessly pointed out, not for most.
The reality is, very few will go the steel homebuild route now. It is no longer cheap and, if one wants to GO, there are more decent yachts than one can count for sale. I think I mentioned a really nice steel yawl earlier. In ready to go cruising condition, forward plating extra thick for high latitudes, the owners too old to continue. No offers on £8k...

You are quite correct. It was an Alan Pape design. Predictive text is driving me scatty. Also, I was wrong about her length. She was 10.5m, so about 35ft. I sold her before completing the final fitting out. Until about 12 years ago, I had always had wooden boats, but I am now firmly converted to GRP.

 

[Achosenman]

Well that was a long read.

Several things spring to mind. GRP is tougher than I thought. The YT video's demonstrate this very nicely. I've formulated a plan for the off-chance I manage to achieve what men better than me found difficult. ( Punching a hole in GRP)

Steel is unsinkable...except when tragically it's not. E.G, a glancing impact on an Iceberg, (Titanic) or getting cut in two by a lager ship. ( RMS Queen Mary bisected HMS Curacao...strangely enough, a steel cruiser with tragic consequences)

I must remember, reefs bad, shore bad, water good, oh and avoid acrobatic whales.

As someone who has depended on composite fabrication and modern design expertise to keep me safe within design tolerances over the last 4 decades, I'm happy with my choice of a GRP boat, especially since I've watched the linked vids on this thread.

I'm afraid this thread has done serious damage to my view of steel boats...and I know I'm wrong in that. However, when you get someone like BS evangelizing the way he does, it's like being compelled to believe David Koresh or Jim Jones were right...and that's simply not going to happen...