Cat A ocean standard need full revision

[ylop]

Perhaps if things start failing after 10 years, the RCD should ban crossing Oceans in boats over 10 years old ? That should work.
<<Reach for popcorn>>

Or require an inspection regime every X years... oh hang on, insurers already effectively do that.

 

[geem]

It doesn’t say Ocean

It certainly does!

 

[lustyd]

It certainly does!

Not for almost a decade now

 

[ylop]

It certainly does!

L_2013354EN.01009001.xml

(CTRL+F will show you that the word Ocean doesn't appear anywhere in the regulations!)

Cat A is defined as: A recreational craft given design category A is considered to be designed for winds that may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave height of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, such as storm, violent storm, hurricane, tornado and extreme sea conditions or rogue waves

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Global Warming impact on wind and wave intensity mould more likely drive a revision in technical elements of any standards for yachts, rather than say windows and adhesive sealant degradation. There is precedence for this in the offshore engineering discipline where wave heights and frequency had to be revised for design calculations. The Cat A wind above F8 and wave above 4m, may be too low if the statistics start to show that that is trending towards normal.

 

[westernman]

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but gluing large windows into the hull of a boat then giving it the highest possible rating under the RCD just seems wrong.

Would you consider the fact that your 1960s mini has just passed its MOT again as a guarantee of a suitable level of safety and equipment for you to set off on a trip from Paris to Dakar across the desert?

RCD is for normal boats doing normal things. Just as the MOT is for cars. It serves the purpose of ensuring a certain minimum standard is reached for boats being put on the market. And that standard is perfectly adequate for the vast majority of people who will not be sailing through a hurricane. It was also partially designed by European boat builders as a trade barrier.

If you think you are going to meet a hurricane, you would evaluate your boat against different criteria. And the MCA Cat 0 rating (more than 150nm from a safe haven) is probably a better starting point then a RCD Cat A and it also specifies certain minimum levels of equipment including first aid kits and body bags (at the time my boat was certified for MCA Cat 0, the requirement was for the number of body bags to correspond to the maximum number of people on board).

Also, I would note that Nordhavn for their atlantic rally insisted that the boats be equipped with storm windows/plates.

RCD is not a maximum achievable standard. It is a minimum and has done a reasonable job of ensuring a reasonable minimum level of suitability of new boats for their designed usage.

 

[flaming]

(at the time my boat was certified for MCA Cat 0, the requirement was for the number of body bags to correspond to the maximum number of people on board).

How was the last bag supposed to be filled?

 

[westernman]

How was the last bag supposed to be filled?

After I had filled the other bags with my 7 crew members, I think I would just give up and crawl into the last bag and sew it shut and close my eyes!

I believe they have changed to the requirement now to just one body bag.

 

[geem]

Not for almost a decade now

I stand corrected. It was removed from the wording in 2016.

 

[Roberto]

After I had filled the other bags with my 7 crew members, I think I would just give up and crawl into the last bag and sew it shut and close my eyes!

My first thought too.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I'm beginning to think we need another forum label, like the venerable "lakesailored" ... only this time we could call it "geemed".

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

geemed

/d͡ʒiːmd/
adjective

1. (of boat choice) found to be wanting in some arbitrary way.
   "Your lovely new Jeanneu has just been geemed on the YBW forums"
   • (of a choice relating to yachting) found to differ from the opinion of geem.
     "Your lithium setup has just been geemed"

Not trying to be controversial, just thought provoking.
Happy New Year!

 

[lustyd]

I stand corrected. It was removed from the wording in 2016.

Brilliant, thread solved, we can all move on

 

[westhinder]

Brilliant, thread solved, we can all move on

After only 11 pages and 212 posts?
I was just beginning to like it

 

[Supertramp]

I don’t disagree that AVS is one measure of security for keelboats. The amount of energy required to reach that angle is important too. And whilst wansy’s new boat probably has a respectable AVS, and my XOD an amazing one, the XOD in particular is an inshore boat, we don’t go out in more than 25kn of base wind. Larger boats are favoured by that measure, and we all know how true that is. A F6 is a big deal on a 20 footer, nothing to write home about on a 30, and by the time you get to 60ft, you’ll be wishing there was more.

Interestingly pilothouse boats do well on AVS due to the buoyancy of the pilothouse structure. But that doesn't make them capable of surviving a knockdown. My boat is a great and capable coastal cruiser (with big pilothouse windows) but I would not choose it if I thought there was a risk of exposure to F10+ at sea.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

As ever this type of thread starts with one person's personal view that a "problem" exists - but fails from the start because their is no analysis of the relevant standard (ISO 12216 in this case) nor identifying where it is deficient, nor any empirical evidence of systemic failure of windows in the hulls of boats built to that standard. This is the standard iso.org/obp/ui/en/#iso:std:iso:12216:ed-2:v1:en - only the headings as you have to pay for the detail. Easy to see that all the areas that are criticised by the doubters (size, location, materials methods of fixing) are covered. Pretty sure a detailed reading will show that a lot of thought from designers and builders has gone into ensuring that such windows are "safe". Of course this does not mean they are foolproof. As you can see the standard was revised in 2020 (from 2001) and pretty clear that many of the revisions are directly related to size and security of windows in the hull sides.

Just a remark about ISO standards, which I've been involved in. ISO Standards must be reviewed every 5 years, with three possible outcomes: revise, renew or delete. So the 2001 standard will have been reviewed several times. Of course, "renew" is the usual action, but any deficiencies or changes in technology since the last review will result in a "revise" decision.

 

[geem]

Brilliant, thread solved, we can all move on

PLEASE, A RCD CERTIFICATION FOR BLUEWATER SAILING BOATS!

 

[potentillaCO32]

PLEASE, A RCD CERTIFICATION FOR BLUEWATER SAILING BOATS!

That is very interesting read.

So if i had unlimited funds i would get a Pogo, quick enough to dodge the bad weather, a new one so I didn't have any window worries.

I would also get a smaller version of the Kracken thinking: skeg supported rudder, encapsulated keel, lead ballast, high AVS of over 130 as per the link above, aluminium framed windows. There are a few options along those lines.

 

[rotrax]

I'm beginning to think we need another forum label, like the venerable "lakesailored" ... only this time we could call it "geemed".

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

geemed

/d͡ʒiːmd/
adjective

1. (of boat choice) found to be wanting in some arbitrary way.
   "Your lovely new Jeanneu has just been geemed on the YBW forums"
   • (of a choice relating to yachting) found to differ from the opinion of geem.
     "Your lithium setup has just been geemed"

Not trying to be controversial, just thought provoking.
Happy New Year!

Surely better than being "Bouba'ed?"

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Surely better than being "Bouba'ed?"

Is that when your mate insists on a Maccy D’s when there’s a lovely old pub serving pies next door?