Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Quite the contrary, I think. And likewise, our boat is well used, 2-3 days sailing per week in season. We broke nothing last year. She is 23 years old.
Cat A ocean standard need full revision
- Thread starter geem
- Start date
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
I received an email from Dragonfly UK earlier this week. It went along the lines of 'Want a new Dragonfly? Tough. You can't have one. Not for years anyway'. So even the most abhorrent boat to traditionalists, that is as anti-Concerto as it's possible to get, and costs silly money to boot, is in high demand. I don't think the Hunter Mystery 35 type boat is ever coming back. No mystery as to why.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
In the usual usage of light winds and coastal waters then the RCD has assisted with the design and construction of boats, but it does not guarantee a boat is 100% safe in all weathers. As I mentioned before the boat only needs to comply at the point of first sale and is irrelevant the day after that. Changes in yacht design precede any changes in the regulations. Yes there have been changes to update RCD regulations on hull windows - but do they go far enough? Aging of the fixing material is not a consideration for RCD regulations but relies on the boat and sealant manufacturers advice that it is safe. However in the real world there are failures with hull windows that are leaking shortly after manufacture.
When I sailed round Britain, I had a few breakages. The cars for the full length battens became stripped where the batten fixed to the car on 3 out of 4 battens. Easily remedied with a helicoil. I broke two 6mm bolts holding the autopilot bracket under the tiller and the pin for the ram on the autopilot bracket. For a 42 year old boat that must show it was strongly built, but I have upgraded many things for my own safety and ensured other items are maintained.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
Strange you mention my name. I should point out I am not against evolution of yacht design. When I was a lot younger I bought the first production race boat (22ft Hunter Formula 1) with a kevlar layup in the hull. It was an extreme design at the time and was easy to get on the plane. As to Dragonfly multihulls, I would certainly consider the 28 or 32 for their ability to arrive sail fast, but their accommodation is their limiting factor, not to mention their cost. I found the Mystery 35 an interesting boat but I dislikes the very long tiller in the cockpit. Stephen Jones designed a very slippery hull and it was a shame it cost so much that few were built.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
I had the same email. But, as my 23 yr old Dragonfly is as solid as a rock, I don’t actually need a new boat. Nice to see them doing well, and long live the waiting list. It keeps the price of second hand boats up.
jamie N
Well-Known Member
The sturdiness of my 1977 Westerly GK24, being illustrated by an early morning sun in Inverness.
I was somewhat surprised.......
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I was somewhat surprised.......
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noelex
Well-Known Member
The ARC and other rallies probably provide the best analysis of the risks. You can look at the number of boats abandoned and the fatalities (unfortunately there is not much information on injuries). There have even been some reports in yachting magazines analysing damage and equipment breakdowns. This provides some basis for assessing the risk of a relatively easy ocean crossing.
The ARC boats are generally quite new, undergo extensive safety checks, and are required to carry significant amounts of safety equipment. On the other hand, the skippers and crew are typically less experienced.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
it shouldn’t be a surprise that glass is transparentI was somewhat surprised.......
westernman
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as a boat (or indeed an above ground building) which is safe in all weathers.
It is true that the boat only needs to comply at the point of first sale.
Are you recommending that we have an official thorough boat survey every year to check compliance with the latest version of a updated RCD? Do you really think that would actually save any lives? Do you think it will be value for money?
Or maybe every boat should be MCA coded and surveyed every year?
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Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
I think you are doing boat buyers an injustice. Boat show visitors are not very indicative of who is actually buying boats, buyers at boat shows are generally there to confirm or finalise a purchase, not buy on the spot after a quick tour of the interior. The vast majority of visitors wandering through the boat interiors admiring the upholstery are the yachting equivalent of tyre kickers, and feigning interest in a boat purchase is normal in order to get aboard for a nose around. Incidentally, it's probably because of the tyre kickers that you were prevented from going on the foredeck of the Bavaria - it was almost certainly down to the liability they would incur if you fell off onto the concrete floor below. The exhibitors are dealing with the general public, so a blanket "no one on the foredeck" is easy to enforce, and it prevents a group of Darwin award candidates from heading to the bow for a selfie and breaking limbs when they fall off.
I also wouldn't make assumptions or worry about what others may or may not be thinking, or the decisions they might make. Doesn't everyone start with little or no experience? Common sense and a healthy dose of self preservation has made everyone on this forum reasonably competent, so why worry about others on the start of their nautical journey? Those that stick with it will arrive at the same level of competence as you, just like you did - none of us were born with a sense of seamanship, but we were all born with a fear of drowning in a cold and unforgiving ocean.
I also don't believe any buyer thinks an RCD confirms a boat is safe any more than vehicle homologation confirms a car is safe. All it confirms is that a set of design criteria have been met that make the boat suitable for its "intended use", defined by the usage pattern of the vast majority of users, and to be honest, the vast majority of usage is coastal cruising in benign conditions - even for more expensive boats, a bit like chelsea tractors - 4x4 SUVs bought primarily for the school run. The real reason "ocean" was removed may well be due to potential liability ... it's also a very poor word to use as it is undefined in terms of expected conditions related to design considerations, just like "blue water" is a meaingless term - they both mean different things to different people.
On the flipside, why weren't Kraken up in arms about the removal of the word "ocean" from the RCD description? It downgraded their certification if some of the posts here are to be believed. The truth is, they probably didn't care, their boats sell on their merits and have a price tag to match, pretty much like all boats of that ilk.
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
The ARC provides a readily available data set, but I don't think it's representative. Likewise the yachting press is general seems to be geared towards short term cruisers dashing around the Atlantic in a season, and fixing everything when they get home again.
My experience is that, approaching fives years of full time cruising, we're just getting out of the 'newbie' ranks. There are thousands of people plodding around and crossing oceans on old boats, fixing them as they go, and these cruisers don't really have that much in common with the ARC participants.
The only ARC boats I know have already sold their boats, which were bought specifically for the trip.
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
I'll take that, buy a Boreal 56, problem solved .... the base price is €1.45m ex VAT (with circa €220,000 extras).
geem
Well-Known Member
I started this thread in good faith as an observation that the latest monohulls were getting very large glued in hull windows, akin to catamaran windows you seen in Lagoons,, etc. This was an observation first hand as we were anchored next to such a boat.
The concern being that monohulls lean over and the risk of sinking or taking on a serious amount of water is real. Having seen bond failures here in the Caribbean as a result of UV damage and heat, it seemed like a poor design choice. RCD allows it. Lloyds Register doesn't.
Lloyds register allows bonded windows in the coachroof but not the hull.
This thread has grown legs and done the normal thing here and become an old vs new thing, but that wasn't my intention. It was a dig at RCD setting a low standard that in my opinion, was too low for boats that the innocent may take into bad weather a few years after the boat was made and find that the bond fails.
There are lots of things I like about modern boats. Vacuum infusion, carbon stiffening and epoxy construction and the increased use of foam core in hulls for stiffness and lightness. All great developments that were not commonplace 25 years ago.
I do think it's ridiculous that the highest RCD rating says large glued in hull windows are fine. Fine at day one but not fine once the bond has failed with obvious consequences. These Cat A boats are the only ones available from production manufacturers. There is no higher RCD standard. The sales blurb says ocean ready, bluewater and I am sure they will be fine on the ARC for the new owner. Down the line, these big window boats have increased risk. The RCD should have broad enough shoulder to say not acceptable. They would only need to add mechanically fixed to vastly improve the safety of such boats. A leak is a leak, but a large hole in the side is a sinker.
The concern being that monohulls lean over and the risk of sinking or taking on a serious amount of water is real. Having seen bond failures here in the Caribbean as a result of UV damage and heat, it seemed like a poor design choice. RCD allows it. Lloyds Register doesn't.
Lloyds register allows bonded windows in the coachroof but not the hull.
This thread has grown legs and done the normal thing here and become an old vs new thing, but that wasn't my intention. It was a dig at RCD setting a low standard that in my opinion, was too low for boats that the innocent may take into bad weather a few years after the boat was made and find that the bond fails.
There are lots of things I like about modern boats. Vacuum infusion, carbon stiffening and epoxy construction and the increased use of foam core in hulls for stiffness and lightness. All great developments that were not commonplace 25 years ago.
I do think it's ridiculous that the highest RCD rating says large glued in hull windows are fine. Fine at day one but not fine once the bond has failed with obvious consequences. These Cat A boats are the only ones available from production manufacturers. There is no higher RCD standard. The sales blurb says ocean ready, bluewater and I am sure they will be fine on the ARC for the new owner. Down the line, these big window boats have increased risk. The RCD should have broad enough shoulder to say not acceptable. They would only need to add mechanically fixed to vastly improve the safety of such boats. A leak is a leak, but a large hole in the side is a sinker.
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
Ah but I didn't say aluminium.
I'm not against it as a building material but it doesn't quite fit my 'best of all worlds' mentality as it's not idiot proof the way that grp is.
Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
I think the problem is that other than emission specs no RCD or ISO standards include service life. They describe requirements as the boat comes out of the yard. It's insurance that set lifespan requirements not design specs.
Your grumble should be against insurance companies and/or boat owners.
geem
Well-Known Member
In all walks of life, standards are set to protect consumers. The RCD should be no different.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Is this what’s holding you back from buying a new production boat? If so, have you asked the manufacturers to fit “proper” windows? If not, I’m afraid you don’t get a vote.
geem
Well-Known Member
Its interesting that those that can't comprehend what I am trying say probably haven't seen what 50kts and the seas to go with it look like.
At no point in those conditions would you be thinking " i wish I had big windows glued in to the hull "
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Ah, you might think that. Of course legislation for standards is subject to the usual lobbying, deception by self interest groups, and ‘oversight’ by people who haven’t got the faintest clue about technical matters. So you end up with the RCD.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
I certainly have been out in those conditions on a delivery trip. I wouldn’t be overly concerned.
I don’t get a vote on new boat design, i have never and probably will never buy a new boat. As I said, if you’re in the market for a new boat speak to the manufacturers otherwise it’s none of your concern.
