We are in a never to be repeated golden age of sailing.

[benjenbav]

What puzzles me is the expectation of somehow coming out financially ahead (or not too far behind) on an item bought for pleasure.

Folks talk about depreciation and maintenance all the time but hardly ever about the cost of money.

Let’s say you call up the sales folk for a nice new state of the art family cruiser, relieving yourself in the process of £250k.

Well, wave goodbye to £10k - £20k per annum depending on whether you’re looking at a lost return on your own money or interest on borrowed money.

The counter argument is that you shouldn’t count the cost of money when looking at something that is being bought to provide enjoyment. If it makes you feel happy; there’s your value.

And I agree with that. But only because I’m not trying to say that buying a boat is anything other than a cost laid out in return for pleasure.

So long as it’s a cost that you can and are willing to meet; happy days.

Also, comparisons are freely made between buying a 50 y/o grp 24footer vs a new 40foot all singing and dancing cruiser which, frankly, is like comparing camping in a tent with staying at the Ritz. Either might appeal but for different reasons.

So, in short I’d say, buy that GK24 that’s linked above (or similar) if you want a simple £2k yacht and are happy to buy new sails and whatever else, pay the mooring charges and deal with ongoing running costs - if that’s what you’re going to enjoy and that’s what you want to spend.

Equally and for the same reasons (what you want and can afford) buy the shiny new thing.

 

[flaming]

I think a tad pessimistic. If you bought a well looked after 10k rival 32 or nic 32 now and carried on looking after it then i cant believe it wouldnt be worth much different to what you paid for it in ten years.
I think once a boat gets to 15 years old maintenance gets to the same. Rigging, sails, engines all consumables.
Running costs of a brand new boat are enormous if you factor in depreciation. If you stick with 32 foot, a new one fully equiped is going to be close to 200k. If you sold after 10 years how much would you lose?

But your OP was talking about Centaurs and Griffons. Now I know the Griffon well, my Dad bought one the year before I was born, and sold it when I was about 15. We had some fantastic times on that boat, but the world has moved on. It takes a very particular type of person to decide to spend their "fun money" on buying and owning a boat like in the UK that when the annual running costs are almost certainly enough for an annual charter holiday on a much bigger and better equipped boat somewhere in the med.

Because of that the demand for that sort of boat is very soft now - hence they're changing hands for "banger money". If you bought one now and kept it for a few years I think you'd be extremely unlikely to get any return at all when you want to get rid of it. The supply of small older GRP boats seems to far exceed the demand for them. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing to do btw, just that when you do your "man maths" on the purchase, you need to factor in writing off the whole of the purchase price. Anything you did get would be a bonus.

 

[flaming]

What puzzles me is the expectation of somehow coming out financially ahead (or not too far behind) on an item bought for pleasure.

Folks talk about depreciation and maintenance all the time but hardly ever about the cost of money.

Let’s say you call up the sales folk for a nice new state of the art family cruiser, relieving yourself in the process of £250k.

Well, wave goodbye to £10k - £20k per annum depending on whether you’re looking at a lost return on your own money or interest on borrowed money.

The counter argument is that you shouldn’t count the cost of money when looking at something that is being bought to provide enjoyment. If it makes you feel happy; there’s your value.

And I agree with that. But only because I’m not trying to say that buying a boat is anything other than a cost laid out in return for pleasure.

So long as it’s a cost that you can and are willing to meet; happy days.

Also, comparisons are freely made between buying a 50 y/o grp 24footer with a new 40foot all singing and dancing cruiser which, frankly, is like comparing camping in a tent with staying at the Ritz. Either might appeal but for different reasons.

So, in short I’d say, buy that GK24 that’s linked above (or similar) if you want a simple £2k yacht and are happy to buy new sails and whatever else, pay the mooring charges and deal with ongoing running costs - if that’s what you’re going to enjoy and that’s what you want to spend.

Equally and for the same reasons (what you want and can afford) buy the shiny new thing.

Absolutely this.

And sometimes the reverse snobbery that is evident around here directed at people who are spending their hard earned, or maybe less hard earned, cash on big shiny boats is a little odd... Those spending the big bucks keep the services that most of us use going, so that they can sell us the £10 item that we need.

 

[newtothis]

What puzzles me is the expectation of somehow coming out financially ahead (or not too far behind) on an item bought for pleasure.

I buy whisky for pleasure; you wouldn't believe the depreciation on that. It is simply unsellable even after a single use.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I buy whisky for pleasure; you wouldn't believe the depreciation on that. It is simply unsellable even after a single use.

Oh I don’t know….
- YouTube

 

[DoubleEnder]

If you know you know

Browns yes. Le Baron, anyone?

 

[mrming]

Wanting to own and sail a boat in the UK at all is now a niche, as said above.

If you’re in that niche, and you’re not mortally offended by new boat designs, then you’re likely to be doing more sailing and less fixing in a brand new boat.

You do need a large amount of capital to make the purchase, however, and not everyone has that.

If you’re self employed and your income is a bit up and down, you won’t be getting finance. Perhaps your family doesn’t like the idea of tying up £200k+ in a hobby, or committing to chunky payments on a marine mortgage.

A well maintained, older boat has a dramatically lower cost of entry. Yes it will likely cost a similar amount (or even a bit more) to continue to maintain and keep upgraded, but that can be done over time when cash is available. And yes you may not get your purchase price back, but the new boat will have lost far more than that if you keep it for 5-10 years.

The older boats that are really not selling are smaller, or have been run down by lack of use and lack of maintenance. In the current market, if a boat needs a new everything, it’s worthless. A genuinely well maintained plastic classic over 30 feet with decent interior space will find a new owner when you’re finished with it, providing you don’t set a fantasy price.

 

[Egret]

Problem is that the next generation like paddleboards and wingfoilers that fold up into a bag and go into the bottom of the wardrobe.

 

[Concerto]

Man on quayside: "What a lovely boat, you must be a very wealthy man to be able to afford that"

Man on boat: "I was before I bought the bloody thing"

You are a PBO - poor bloody owner.

 

[Concerto]

Keeping any boat is going to cost the same in a marina or mooring for the same length, irrespective of age. A new boat will probably cost slightly more to insure and an old boat slightly more to maintain. The depreciation on a new boat will be greatest in the first couple of years, whereas the value that may be lost on an older boat will be less. Every owner has different financial situations and chooses according to what they can afford. Keeping a smaller older boat in a cheaper mooring will probably cost less than a fortnight family holiday, but the boat is available all year and becomes a hobby besides a sport. I know quite a lot of younger people who enjoy sailing over many of the modern sports like paddle boarding, snowboarding, etc. Many of these people started sailing on flotilla holidays and got the sailing bug. There is nothing like owning your own boat.

 

[Stemar]

I used to joke that I ran two cars and a boat for the price of a good second hand car. Total purchase price, less than £10K, the mooring for the boat was about the same as the insurance for the two cars, and maintenance on the boat was about the same as getting the cars through their MOT. Depreciation on each of them was nothing as long until the day they turned up their toes. One car lasted us about eight years, the other 12, and we kept the boat 18 years, annually, so a lot less than that decent second hand car,

OK, all three were a bit scruffy, but I kept them road/seaworthy, and it does prove that boating doesn't have to break the bank, even for those of relatively modest means

 

[justanothersailboat]

But your OP was talking about Centaurs and Griffons. Now I know the Griffon well, my Dad bought one the year before I was born, and sold it when I was about 15. We had some fantastic times on that boat, but the world has moved on. It takes a very particular type of person to decide to spend their "fun money" on buying and owning a boat like in the UK that when the annual running costs are almost certainly enough for an annual charter holiday on a much bigger and better equipped boat somewhere in the med.

Because of that the demand for that sort of boat is very soft now - hence they're changing hands for "banger money". If you bought one now and kept it for a few years I think you'd be extremely unlikely to get any return at all when you want to get rid of it. The supply of small older GRP boats seems to far exceed the demand for them. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing to do btw, just that when you do your "man maths" on the purchase, you need to factor in writing off the whole of the purchase price. Anything you did get would be a bonus.

Comparing the annual running costs to one charter is rather apples and oranges though isn't it? The point of having a boat on a UK mooring is that you get to use it pretty much every weekend for two thirds or even three quarters of the year, and leave your own stuff aboard so you don't have to lug it back and forth, just turn up and go. (not that everyone with a mooring does that, for some weird reason, but it is the point).

The yearly cost-and-depreciation difference between DIYing a zero-resale-value-but-fun little old cruiser on a mooring buoy, and keeping a still fairly moderate larger newer boat in the UK... well, that comfortably covers a charter somewhere warm but family-pleasing in a big but dull and placid new boat (that is no more comfortable and barely faster, in fact, just bulkier and less saily). Best of both worlds.

 

[Leslie frank]

Saying that we are in a golden age of sailing seems odd to me. Whilst i agree that you can buy a boat in the uk for very little compared to the past, the marina prices in the south of England are shocking. Last march i paid more for one night on a town Quay in Lymjngton than i did for a night in Nice the same summer! I can see the appeal of Premier marinas where you get free nights elsewhere but thats a bit limiting.Moreover Brexit has made long term cruising in Europe extremely. I have had my 44ft ketch for 20 years but I can't see me being able to afford to keep it for too many more years due to marina prices

 

[potentillaCO32]

Saying that we are in a golden age of sailing seems odd to me. Whilst i agree that you can buy a boat in the uk for very little compared to the past, the marina prices in the south of England are shocking. Last march i paid more for one night on a town Quay in Lymjngton than i did for a night in Nice the same summer! I can see the appeal of Premier marinas where you get free nights elsewhere but thats a bit limiting.Moreover Brexit has made long term cruising in Europe extremely. I have had my 44ft ketch for 20 years but I can't see me being able to afford to keep it for too many more years due to marina prices

I get that but I don't get how marina prices , particularly in the solent can stay so high given the drop off in participation.
I know marinas are full but mainly boats that don't go anywhere.

3k a year on the east coast is liveable with but 9k - 12k for a 10m boat in the solent, of after tax money, is just nuts. How many people must be questionning their ownership given little use.

 

[Greemble]

I get that but I don't get how marina prices , particularly in the solent can stay so high given the drop off in participation.
I know marinas are full but mainly boats that don't go anywhere.

I think the answer to your question is at the start of the next sentence.
Prices are high, because the marinas are full. The boats might not go anywhere, but they still pay their fees.

3k a year on the east coast is liveable with but 9k - 12k for a 10m boat in the solent, of after tax money, is just nuts. How many people must be questionning their ownership given little use.

Again, you have answered that question in your opening post.

To the extent that boatyards are scrapping biats at a rate of knots that they have never done before.

Which is also why smaller, old boats are so cheap - potential new owners are looking at when it'll be time for them to go and worrying about not being able to sell and getting stuck with the cost of scrapping them.

100% depreciation is bad enough, but would you really consider the initial purchase if you expect to have 300/400/500% or even more depreciation?

 

[ridgy]

There will always be enough rich people on the south coast to keep the marinas full. Boat ownership has always been a fantasy. Apart from the south coast nearly every other major yachting centre is devoid of moving boats even at the height of summer.