Cat A ocean standard need full revision

[dunedin]

Yep.

https://klakamarine.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Klaka-IJSCT-rudder-strength-submitted.pdf

and you are the first person to talk about loss of life on here. The rest of the posts have been about boat loss or boat issues.

T save you reading all of it:

"Rudder failure happens with distressing regularity –
perhaps ten times as often as keels falling off. Casey
(2018) estimates that rudder failure occurs on “close to
1%” of all ocean crossings, Tibbs (2007) reports 4 rudder
failures on the ARC rallies between 2001 and 2006, which
attract on average about 230 boats each year. That amounts
to 0.3% of the crossings. 6% of the fleet suffered rudder
failure in the 1979 Fastnet yacht race (Forbes et al, 1979).
The 1998 Sydney to Hobart race resulted in 2% of the fleet
experiencing rudder failure (CYCA, 1999). "

So your view of rudder failures happening “regularly” on ARC is based upon 0.3% having rudder failures. And we would need to dig into the Tibbs report referenced to find out what exactly these “failures” were and how serious.
There are a heck of a lot of other things which have failed a lot more regularly on ARC crossings. And as noted, none of these resulted in any fatalities, so wouldn’t be top of my worry list - and indeed wasn’t when we did the crossing.

 

[geem]

OK so you have swapped your position from post #141, when you suggested rules should be changed based upon fatalities?

I haven't changed my position one jot.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Having refitted a yacht built in '73, it was surprising the amount of wear and tear. The windows, were all refurbished bonding class in frames with modern adhesive sealant, instead of the old rubber seal arrangements. Sealing the frame to the hull used a modern high tenacity foam instead of the double sided tape originally used. the frames are screwed in place, and many holes had to be filled with epoxy and redrilled. the windows now are superior than the original design. Mine has an encapsulated keel, the mess of filler that was removed was significant requiring a lot of cutting back to rebuild with glass cloth and resin to original specification.

However, my point is, modern boats will all reach a point when they require the refits many of us associate with early MABs. Folks will find ways to manage grids and fin keels economically and no doubt bonded widows will be the same.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I daresay many of us have tried to remove Sika, we are talking 291 here I assume. The brown stuff to a blanket expression is about 1% of it.

Until it has 15 to 20 years of UV on it, and then it turns to cottage cheese. Check the sealant around where the chainplates for your backstay tensioners go through the deck of each float. Unless you have replaced it, I bet the sealant has let go from one side - the hull or the metal. Sooner or later you'll be able to poke out a load of dis-bonded bits of what was once uniform sealant. That happened to all 4 of mine by 20 years.

 

[TSB240]

Where do you sail?

Where the butter don't melt and mostly in sight of land!
Perhaps they should issue blackout sun curtains for hull windows in the Caribean!

 

[TSB240]

I don't have much concern about the effects of UV on saildrive gaskets.

Common Causes of Saildrive Gasket Failure:
Aging & Material Fatigue: Rubber degrades over time, especially with exposure to UV light, saltwater, and temperature extremes, causing cracks and leaks.
Impact Damage: Hitting underwater objects like logs, ropes, or the seabed can tear or dislodge the gaiter.
Corrosion: Severe corrosion on the leg or hull mating surfaces can compromise the seal's integrity.
Improper Installation/Adhesion: If the hull surface isn't prepared correctly (e.g., not sanded), the fairing seal might detach.
Corrosion of Other Components: While not the gasket itself, failure of other seals can lead to oil or fuel leaks that mimic or contribute to gasket issues.

 

[lustyd]

That happened to all 4 of mine by 20 years.

Because it has a stated life of 10 years. Do some maintenance!

 

[doug748]

Yep.

https://klakamarine.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Klaka-IJSCT-rudder-strength-submitted.pdf

and you are the first person to talk about loss of life on here. The rest of the posts have been about boat loss or boat issues.

T save you reading all of it:

"Rudder failure happens with distressing regularity –
perhaps ten times as often as keels falling off. Casey
(2018) estimates that rudder failure occurs on “close to
1%” of all ocean crossings, Tibbs (2007) reports 4 rudder
failures on the ARC rallies between 2001 and 2006, which
attract on average about 230 boats each year. That amounts
to 0.3% of the crossings. 6% of the fleet suffered rudder
failure in the 1979 Fastnet yacht race (Forbes et al, 1979).
The 1998 Sydney to Hobart race resulted in 2% of the fleet
experiencing rudder failure (CYCA, 1999). "

It's really a waste of your time trying to impress the ostrich element on here but fair go to you for making the effort.

Our poster boy of long distance cruising, Martin Daldrop took his Bavaria 34 half way around the world, much commented on in these pages. Hurrah for the AWB, proof positive, just shows etc etc.

In 2024 his rudder broke and fell off in the South Atlantic, and the boat rapidly sank. Daldrop said he would carry on sailing with something:

"Stronger
Much more robust
An older design........
With a skeg"

He has since bought an Amel.

.

 

[Ammonite]

There are many reasons a window might be out. Perhaps it was crazed and someone replaced it, or cracked, massive scratch etc.
at that age anything could have happened in the intervening years and I doubt anyone would own up to a shoddy DIY replacement.

All I do know is I’ve tried to remove Sika before and it certainly doesn’t just fall off and neither does tge 3M equivalent

Indeed, although it would appear that the pros (Bavaria) also struggle on occasions, at least according to this post, although admitedly this is a reported issue with coachroof rather than hull windows. Still with temperatures regularly well into the 40s in Greece in recent years and presumably the same sealant my money remains on thermal expansion / UV damage being the cause of the window failing out on the Bavaria Cruiser 37 I mentioned, rather than a shoddy DIY repair, but we will never know.
Leaking Bavaria 37 cruiser (2014)

 

[RunAgroundHard]

It's really a waste of your time trying to impress the ostrich element on here but fair go to you for making the effort. ...

That cuts both ways in a discussion, or do you suggest that only certain points of view are valid?

 

[seeSimon]

There are many reasons a window might be out....

All I do know is I’ve tried to remove Sika before and it certainly doesn’t just fall off and neither does tge 3M equivalent

It does appear that at some stage it will just fall off...just a matter of when and why?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

It does appear that at some stage it will just fall off...just a matter of when and why?

100%. Just takes time and daylight. It doesn't let go everywhere, but it does enough to lose the seal. Then the item has to be removed and re-bedded. Fine if it's a lump of metal like a deck fitting, lever away. But if it's a fragile compound curve window that the boat builder no longer supplies...

 

[lustyd]

But if it's a fragile compound curve window that the boat builder no longer supplies...

Sadly at that point it’s neither the manufacturer or their customers problem. The customer will be in a newer version which the manufacturer sold. Always been that way always will be. Ask owners of old HRs about teak decks, for instance.

 

[potentillaCO32]

So your view of rudder failures happening “regularly” on ARC is based upon 0.3% having rudder failures. And we would need to dig into the Tibbs report referenced to find out what exactly these “failures” were and how serious.
There are a heck of a lot of other things which have failed a lot more regularly on ARC crossings. And as noted, none of these resulted in any fatalities, so wouldn’t be top of my worry list - and indeed wasn’t when we did the crossing.

Not 'my view' but the view of experts.

 

[geem]

Sadly at that point it’s neither the manufacturer or their customers problem. The customer will be in a newer version which the manufacturer sold. Always been that way always will be. Ask owners of old HRs about teak decks, for instance.

Mine lasted 30 years. We still have the original teak decks on the aft raised deck by the mizzen mast. Thats 45 years old. I am not sure that such a good comparison with bonded in windows that fall out at 12 years.
I accept that our friends Jeanneau 45DS is probably an exstreme example because it spends all it time in high UV and heat of the tropics but I am aware of another Jeanneau 42DS that had similar issues in Portugal a couple of years ago. Lots of these older models don't have bonded in hull windows. We are talking about coachroof windows and since bonded in hull windows in monohulls are a relatively new thing, it's not unreasonable to assume that similar failure will occur to those in a similar timescale. The concern of having a leaking hull window or one that pops out would be far worse than a coachroof window failure for obvious reasons

 

[potentillaCO32]

Mine lasted 30 years. We still have the original teak decks on the aft raised deck by the mizzen mast.

Mine are leaking. Bit much after 55 years. So I phoned Rogers up to complain and they sold me replacements. Talk about designed obsolesence.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

100%. Just takes time and daylight. It doesn't let go everywhere, but it does enough to lose the seal. Then the item has to be removed and re-bedded. Fine if it's a lump of metal like a deck fitting, lever away. But if it's a fragile compound curve window that the boat builder no longer supplies...

It needs replacing, as you say. It hadn’t been done when we bought the boat, but as I sail with a boatbuilder, anything I don’t notice gets pointed out. It has been done, 4 years ago.

 

[Concerto]

I’m not sure who “drove” the RCD but what everyone forgets is most EU directives are not really about improving safety they are about opening market access!

Rubbish. Too many of the EU regulations were designed by large manufacturers with that guise, but they are becoming a barrier to new entrants to any market. The cases I remember reading about involved tethered balloons and double decker buses. The first case set the regulations using a patented German manufacturer's safety mechanism, making their main competitor, who was British, unable to meet the new regulation without using the German design, therefore making every other manufacturer uncompetitive. The second case involved moving a large cylinder through the bus by the recommendation of a continental manufacturer, again this was larger than the main British manufacturer used which meant all their designs had to be redesigned at great expense. As a final comment were the regulation over the amount of curvature allowed for bananas. This was brought forward by Britain from pressure by Fyffes to protect their Caribbean plantations from cheaper South American growers.

 

[ylop]

Rubbish. Too many of the EU regulations were designed by large manufacturers with that guise, but they are becoming a barrier to new entrants to any market. The cases I remember reading about involved tethered balloons and double decker buses. The first case set the regulations using a patented German manufacturer's safety mechanism, making their main competitor, who was British, unable to meet the new regulation without using the German design, therefore making every other manufacturer uncompetitive. The second case involved moving a large cylinder through the bus by the recommendation of a continental manufacturer, again this was larger than the main British manufacturer used which meant all their designs had to be redesigned at great expense. As a final comment were the regulation over the amount of curvature allowed for bananas. This was brought forward by Britain from pressure by Fyffes to protect their Caribbean plantations from cheaper South American growers.

The forum rules prevent me responding!

 

[Supertramp]

I'm not convinced that an RCD directive can ensure the safety of a boat in extreme weather. The decisions of the skipper and chance will become significant factors in extreme wind and sea. That makes it hard to pin blame on poor design or workmanship - something will break in really extreme conditions. The Bavaria originally referred to was in 60 knt winds and 4m+ seas.

A discerning long distance skipper will choose and adapt his craft to meet their requirements - making their personal choices for the numerous design features that can fail or fall off.

Its a big step to expect or want a manufacturing directive to be able to substitute for the skipper's experience.

Better to share the findings of incidents so that others are forewarned and can avoid or correct potential issues.