The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[grumpy_o_g]

Exactly. And none of that prevents steel from rusting ...

Ironically (see what I did there?) I think that's not quite true. Plastic resin is sometimes applied to steel hulls to prevent rusting. So that's plastic Plastic on plastic steel I guess.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Well that was a long read.

Several things spring to mind. GRP is tougher than I thought. The YT video's demonstrate this very nicely. I've formulated a plan for the off-chance I manage to achieve what men better than me found difficult. ( Punching a hole in GRP)

Steel is unsinkable...except when tragically it's not. E.G, a glancing impact on an Iceberg, (Titanic) or getting cut in two by a lager ship. ( RMS Queen Mary bisected HMS Curacao...strangely enough, a steel cruiser with tragic consequences)

I must remember, reefs bad, shore bad, water good, oh and avoid acrobatic whales.

As someone who has depended on composite fabrication and modern design expertise to keep me safe within design tolerances over the last 4 decades, I'm happy with my choice of a GRP boat, especially since I've watched the linked vids on this thread.

I'm afraid this thread has done serious damage to my view of steel boats...and I know I'm wrong in that. However, when you get someone like BS evangelizing the way he does, it's like being compelled to believe David Koresh or Jim Jones were right...and that's simply not going to happen...

GRP can be tough but the thing that would worry me is a hard grounding on a sharp rock or ledge that catches the flank, or perhaps drying out onto a shopping trolley or other rubbish in a lift keel like a Feeling, rather than smashing head on into rocks. GRP can and are made stiffer by using carbon fibre but the boats that use Kevlar reinforcement would be better bet to me as that gives puncture and tear resistance to a large degree (at a cost). A steel boat would possibly be better in those circumstances than vanilla GRP but partly because it's prohibitively expensive to mould or shape the skin of a steel hull to optimise strength and elasticity to weight in all vectors.

Effectively you could argue that steel designs are somewhat over-engineered in some aspects whereas GRP can be optimised to accept the risks of a one in a million happening (like drying out on top of a shopping trolley). You could also argue that over-engineering regardless of material gives a feeling of solidity and peace of mind of course.

 

[Achosenman]

I'm conscious that sailing is not without risk. You either accept that and sail or stay on land and don't. Within our power, we mitigate risks every day. Sailing, like flying is no different.

GRP is far tougher than most of us believe. YM demonstrated that. They weakened the hull with an angle grinder, then whacked it with a lump hammer. They filmed their knowledge and hubris that years of sailing boats and working within the industry gave them. They understood the strength of the hull and how to overcome it. Only they didn't understand, because they failed, spectacularly. Then that old YT clip of the yacht being hammered repeatedly into objects at hull speed demonstrated yet again most of us have no idea what happens during a collision. Group wisdom tells us that the boat suffered a catastrophic failure, only it didn’t.

For me, I looked at steel, the downsides made me choose GRP. I looked at the venerable marques and didn't like the waste of space inside and the large bills a 30+ yo boat brings. I settled for an AWB despite group think. It suited my tastes and my budget. They sail to far off places and the data supports this. Is it the strongest? No, however I believe the question should be, is it strong enough to do the job?

 

[prv]

drying out onto a shopping trolley

You're having a laugh, surely? Rocks or an old RSJ or something would certainly have me concerned, but any boat fit to go to sea, whatever it's made of, is going to flatten a wire shopping trolley without even noticing.

Pete

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

I believe the question should be, is it strong enough to do the job?

I think you have hit the nail on the head. What job do you want it to do? High lattitude sailing? Long term liveaboard cruising off the beaten track? Probably not.

 

[Achosenman]

The answer for me would be no to both of those questions. Cruising yes, but to places warm and pleasant. Obviously, that means living aboard for extended periods, so the boat must be big enough for the stuff you accumulate without getting too like the garden shed.

High latitude sailing and off the beaten track would mean aluminium or steel and while sailing the cold high latitudes would be fun for a bit, I wouldn’t want to spend too much time freezing my bits off. Not forgetting the vocal fallout from the first mate, her tolerance for the cold is very short lived

 

[GHA]

Cruising yes, but to places warm and pleasant.

An awful lot of warm and pleasant in the world is off the beaten track

 

[Brent Swain]

Here is an article of a T boning of a steel yacht by a freighter, along with a picture (of what the Sleavin's boat would have looked like Had she been steel. NO lives would have been lost ).
I couldn't get the picture to post here, only the text . Perhaps someone else can get the picture here. No leaks of any kind. A plastic boat would have been cut in half ,probably with the loss of all lives aboard.

I was shocked when I saw this boat at anchor in Las Palmas last week.

According to a neighbour, the French-flagged steel yacht Gringo had been on passage between Fuerteventura and Gran Canaria and was about 20 miles offshore when it was hit by a freighter. (Las Palmas is the main trans-shipping port for the Canary Islands.)

You can see the distinct bow bulb shape where the yacht was T-boned. It’s not immediately obvious but the boat was ketch rigged. She was dismasted immediately after impact and all that is left is the stump of the main mast to the first spreaders. The collision has clearly lifted the deck, and you can imagine the collateral damage to frames, stringers and main bulkhead, can’t you?

Lucky it was a steel yacht. Shiver.

Read more at https://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/elaine-bunting/yacht-run-down-by-ship-18229#Y7yiT8Fyue2rU2lo.99

 

[newtothis]

Here is an article of a T boning of a steel yacht by a freighter, along with a picture (of what the Sleavin's boat would have looked like Had she been steel. NO lives would have been lost ).
A plastic boat would have been cut in half ,probably with the loss of all lives aboard.

Yet again, an example of a tin can being necessary only because of poor seamanship. On-watch crew saw a collision situation them disappeared below decks.
It seems the main reason for sailing a tin can is to make up for not being a very good sailor.
But keep throwing in the unprovable assumptions as if they are facts.

 

[Brent Swain]

Yes, they were really dense. However , I don't believe your assertion that encasing them in plastic would give them, automatically, the TOTAL infallibility of a plastic boat owner, all of whom you suggest ,NEVER ,EVER make mistakes.
Ditto your implied suggestion that singlehanders NEVER sleep.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

You're having a laugh, surely? Rocks or an old RSJ or something would certainly have me concerned, but any boat fit to go to sea, whatever it's made of, is going to flatten a wire shopping trolley without even noticing.

Pete

I've never seen a boat punctured by a shopping trolley but I've seen the pretty tough casing of a forklift truck punctured by one. The trolley quite possibly would flatten or compress into mud or something but it could also collapse in such a way as to leave a very sharp and strong piece projecting up. As you point out, it was just an example of things that could puncture a hull though.

 

[Brent Swain]

You don't do reading comprehension then. No worries, I won't suggest you post on that then.

I challenged BS to post about sailing. Whatever he's gleaned from his claimed very extensive cruising experience. I'm not trying to constrain what he posts about in any way, just suggesting he gets away from his single topic to date. I'm suggesting we open the floor to him.

You may believe he knows nothing about sailing. I've certainly seen that alleged elsewhere. I suspect that but am trying to keep an open mind.

I have posted my clearance paper out of f Hilo Hawaii, showing all previous ports on that trip alone , along with pictures of me and my boats in many tropical ports, etc etc. Cant get my passports to post here, with all the stamps, too big. None of my critics have posted any such solid proof that they have ever sailed anywhere, or ever left their mother's basement .

 

[Brent Swain]

There is only one reference to a boat intrepid having a Southern right whale breach and land on the boat.

The owner is an acquaintance of mine so know all about it so get your story straight.

Any chance you could post the pictures of that event here, along with text of articles on it?

 

[Brent Swain]

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? I've no idea about the range of his knowledge. What I didn't like was the suggestion that he be required to post on 200 other subjects, before coming back to his pet one.

I only post here on a fairly limited range of topics. I was unaware of the requirement to have knowledge, or at least an opinion on all subjects.

Actually, as one who HAS BUILT a steel yacht, I am interested in his origami methods, about which he probably has more knowledge than anyone else here.

When I built a steel yacht, an Alan Pale designed, multi-chine 33footer, the hull was built upside down, by making and erecting frames, then chine bars, then fitting each shell plate to the chines. This was quite a long and laborious building method, which although cheap, took quite a while. I think the finished article probably looked better than one made by the origami method, but I would be the last person to try to curb his obvious enthusiasm.

If people don't like his posts, there are two things that they can do:- stop reading them, and stop replying.

Here is a quote from someone using traditional steel boat building methods, on metalboatsociety.org, forum

Boys I gotta tell ya...frames are plenty work. It's not like you're done with em once they're erected...you gotta brace em to keep straight, weld behind them, tweak, paint and generally work around them. Oh yeah, don't forget, you've also got to buy them, or the significant amount of material it takes to cut em out of. I'm building a pretty complex powercat with a full frame complement. I see more and more builders coming out with designs which have a very minimal amount of frames, utilizing thicker plating which, incidentally, is much easier to work with than the thin stuff. I'm contacting my designer to see if he's thinking along the same lines for the next one.

A sailboat is in my future somewhere. When I get ready it's going to be an origami design. The efficiencies are too compelling and the currency of life's limited days too dear.

 

[Brent Swain]

But others have built Van de Staht 34's right way up in times that are not much longer than BS's claims (I know of one).

Th suggestion being that it takes no longer to cut,grind fit and wed 180 feet of chine , 360ft, if you use chine bars, as 28 ft, and full length chines are just as easy to keep fair, with many weld seams between them ,as one single plate from sheer to centreline.
Ya Sure!
What a crock!

 

[Brent Swain]

View attachment 72743

Here is some of the evidence response I posted to counter the claim that I have little cruising experience, on SA
It contains all the ports I visited on that cruise, which the US govt tends to check with the listed ports , and jail anyone who lies to them.
View attachment 72744
This my boat in Baja. 1989 .No, those are not BC fir trees in the back ground!View attachment 72745
The fleet in La Paz ,Baja. Mine is the green boat. The red one is another 31 I built, which continued on to England.View attachment 72746
My current boat, hauled out in Vavau Tonga, for a non stop to Vancouver Island 2003View attachment 72747
Leaving Aitutaki, Cook Islands, 2,000View attachment 72748
Me on my first boat, in the Marquesas, and her in Robinson's Cove, Moorea1973.
View attachment 72749
My last boat, Robinson's Cove, Moorea, 1978
View attachment 72750
My current boat, Niue 2002.
View attachment 72751
My first boat on the reef, Fiji 1975.Would have survived with minimal damage, had she been steel.
View attachment 72752
The first 36 I built ,being winched off thru up to 12 ft surf , after 16 days of pounding in up to 12 ft surf, Baja 1982. No serious damage . A plastic boat would have broken up in the first few minutes.

These were all deleted on SA, to support the lies. The moderator refused to post the locations from which my posts had been made, to support the lies, leaving that site with zero credibility .

Kinda looks like proof of cruising experience to me, far more than anything my critics have posted of theirs ,far more than most of them can.

Notice the first entries on the Hilo clearance paper.
It says "Canadian Yacht."
It also says :
"Crew one."
I also shows :
"Passengers none."
Nether Robin Knox Johnson ,nor Chay Blyth, nor Moitessier, etc etc had as much proof that they hadn't pulled a "Crowhurst."

 

[john_morris_uk]

Kinda looks like proof of cruising experience to me, far more than anything my critics have posted of theirs ,far more than most of them can.

Brent you need to be very careful about making sweeping statement suggesting ‘most of your critics’ couldn’t even ‘prove’ their sailing experience. I personally know some of the people on these forums who are critical of you and they are very experienced sailors. Throw away insults do you no favours.

The problem I have with your ‘evidence’ is firstly a load of pictures from quite a few years ago isn’t very convincing. I’ve got pictures of me sailing or on boats in various parts of the world going back over fifty years. I don’t think it ‘proves’ anything. My passports show stamps where I’ve cleared in and out of places almost everywhere including various Antarctic territories (or claimed territories) but some of those were when I was on ships and not yachts. It proves nothing. I’d never show them or publish them as doing so is childish IMHO but mainly because the real problem for me is that people who fabricate stories or ‘embroider the truth’ a little are often those who volunteer or come up with more and more reasons to show why their story really is true. A general principle is that those who lie have the most detailed stories. I’m extremely wary of people who protest too much. In the past you’ve claimed multiple ocean crossings but it doesn’t ring true and showing old and faded photographs certainly doesn’t support your case.

I’m not suggesting you’ve never been to these places. I’m happy to believe that you’ve made an ocean passage at some time in your past. However I do have doubts about how much sailing you’ve done because you don’t talk about sailing much or anything else except how wonderful YOUR designs and YOUR construction is. If you reply to this, instead of immediately going into a rant about how people don’t believe you, and the whole sailing world is against you, (or questioning my experience) try and write with the balance that sailing as many miles as you claim you have would bring to most people.

I’m interested that you quote (rather selectively) from the metal boat website because there are differing opinions on there too. Also you have three or four pet stories about disasters to metal or GRP boats that you keep coming back to. Unfortunately for you, lots of people have many more positive experiences of boats built of GRP or wood and your slack handful of disasters are known to be exceptional and not the norm.

Like some others on here, I freely and readily agree that steel has its merits. For some sorts of sailing it even might be the preferred option for hull construction. However it’s NOT the answer for the majority of people and neither is backyard boat building. There’s a tiny niche market for boats designed and built in the way you suggest and all your ranting and raving isn’t going to make it any bigger. In fact as others have pointed out, you’re in danger of turning people away if you keep arguing the way you do. Start acknowledging the problems of steel construction in a reasoned and balanced way and people might listen to you more readily.

 

[NormanS]

Oh dear, we're back to willy waving again.

 

[DownWest]

But others have built Van de Staht 34's right way up in times that are not much longer than BS's claims (I know of one).

Th suggestion being that it takes no longer to cut,grind fit and wed 180 feet of chine , 360ft, if you use chine bars, as 28 ft, and full length chines are just as easy to keep fair, with many weld seams between them ,as one single plate from sheer to centreline.
Ya Sure!
What a crock!

Here you go again. I said NOT MUCH LONGER, but you chose to ignore that. The extra time for the VdS chines is not much in the overall build time. ( I do a lot of welding as part of my day job, so this is not guesswork) And one ends up with a boat that has some resale value, which does not appear to be the case with yours.

 

[robertj]

Any offshore cruiser who claims he has never worried about what he might hit in the night , or in a fog, or both combined , is either delusional or lying. Without experiencing the peace of mind a good steel hull gives one in adverse conditions, it is hard for anyone to imagine cruising with that kind of peace of mind .Ditto higher solid lifelines, airtight hatches etc etc. Whether you hit anything or not ,the peace of mind is well worth it.
Justifying fragility in a boat is simply bad seamanship.

I agree totally with that Brent.
I am never totally at ease trying to get sleep on a night passage. The collision niggle is always there. If I were to have a steel boat I would be easier but never totally at ease.