The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[JumbleDuck]

By that, you imply that steel has Zero advantage in any use,and that plastic is the only option.

I really don't think anyone has said that, implied that. On the otherhand, it's clear that some posters think you claim that GRP is never a better choice than steel. Obviously that's not the case, since you wrote (my emphasis)

I have never claimed that plastic boaters are mad ,just that steel is sometimes a better, safer choice.

Perhaps you missed my question about that. In the interests of re-balancing things, I'd be very grateful if you could take a minutes to give me/us your thoughts:

... given that you now say that steel is only "sometimes a better, safer choice" than GRP, could you let us know when, in your opinion, GRP is a better safer choice than steel?

Many thanks.

 

[rotrax]

I have never claimed that steel boats are for everyone. Those are your words, not mine. Anyone listing ANY advantages of steel, is instantly accused of claiming that they are for everyone, a cure all for everything. By that, you imply that steel has Zero advantage in any use,and that plastic is the only option. Now THAT is a lie!

The above is not strictly true Brent.

You, in previous threads stated quite clearly that you believed that those who chose-in your choice of words-" Plastic boats with soggy balso cores " over building one of your steel origami designs were one sandwich short of a picnic.

You posted costs and times to build that few believe possible-certainly outside BC where your fabrication takes place.

You have, many times, belittled and patronised those who have an alternative view to yours.

Not the best way to argue your corner, IMHO........................................

 

[NormanS]

At least Brent has the practical experience of building steel boats. How many of his critics on here have equivalent experience and knowledge. It's easy to criticise.

 

[JumbleDuck]

At least Brent has the practical experience of building steel boats. How many of his critics on here have equivalent experience and knowledge. It's easy to criticise.

Building experience, although interesting, is not really relevant to a discussion about the use of boats. It's possible to debate FWD vs RWD in cars without actually having built a car ...

However, Mr Swain has told us that he believe steel is sometimes better and safer than GRP and (by implication) that GRP is sometimes better and safer than steel. I do hope he will give some examples of the latter situation, so we can move on a bit. It's good to see that he is not as hardline about steel as he sometimes is painted.

 

[john_morris_uk]

From Brent: (apologies that it’s an extract but the way you use the forum software is slightly erratic and makes it difficult to quote in the normal way. )

So what do you suggest? That I state that all I have learned in over 40 years of building, designing living aboard and maintaining steel boats is wrong, and those who have none of that steel boat experience are right, including those who have never owned, lived aboard, built , crossed ocean in or maintained a steel boat for decades ,have it right? That they know more about what I have done in the last 45 years than I do?
I don't see you posting statements that everything you believe in , or have posted, is wrong and that everything your critics have posted, is right!
You suggest that I stick to posting what I don't believe, and what I believe, based on over 40 years of steel boat building , cruising, ocean crossing and living aboard and maintaining is wrong. You sound like the school teacher who ordered me to lie , in order to be marked "right."

I’m not suggesting you go against your principles and beliefs in any way. I am trying to be friendly and explain why and how you get people’s backs up and why some of your claims are difficult to believe.

If you lose your knee jerk reactions to any criticism of steel construction and stop being so downright rude about people who choose to sail GRP boats (like saying they never go anywhere and spend all their time in marinas etc) then people might take you a little more seriously.

You’re also completely missing the point I was making over ‘proving your cruising experience’. One of my jobs is examining people for their ticket to be captain of a boat up to 200 tonnes and 25 metres long. There’s a set of minimum experience and passages made and miles sailed. People turn up with their log book and one of the first things I have to do is to decide if they’re blagging it or not. Fortunately I’ve sailed many places around the world and certainly all over Europe and the Med’. It doesn’t take me very long to chat to them about a few places and their passages to see if it all rings true.

Finally, experience of ocean sailing doesn’t guarantee any competence. I know of one famous round the world sailor who failed his captains exam afterwards. He couldn’t drive the boat in close quarters situations or manage crew very well at all. (And I’m not naming names!!!). Your claimed experience counts, but not in the ‘it trumps all’ way that you suggest.

 

[dom]

Are we not all in agreement here? Steel is the clear winner for those wishing to park their boats on a reef; GRP for those wishing to park their boats in a marina. Simples

 

[NormanS]

Building experience, although interesting, is not really relevant to a discussion about the use of boats. It's possible to debate FWD vs RWD in cars without actually having built a car ...

However, Mr Swain has told us that he believe steel is sometimes better and safer than GRP and (by implication) that GRP is sometimes better and safer than steel. I do hope he will give some examples of the latter situation, so we can move on a bit. It's good to see that he is not as hardline about steel as he sometimes is painted.

Have a look at the title of the thread, and you may want to reconsider your first sentence.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Have a look at the title of the thread, and you may want to reconsider your first sentence.

The discussion has moved on, and in any case building any boat has to be for use. If we were sticking strictly to building, none of the stiff about hitting reefs would be relevant.

 

[lpdsn]

Do they??

https://www.sailingworld.com/moments-impact#page-2

[h=4]Alex Thompson, 11.16.16; Location: South Atlantic; Damage: Sheared foil; continued racing[/h][h=4]Thomas Ruyant, 12.19.16; Location: Tasman Sea; Damage: Cracked hull; Retired[/h][h=4]Sebastien Josse, 12.5.16; Location: Southern Ocean; Damage: Broken foil; Retired[/h][h=4]Vincent Riou, 11.20.16; Location: South Altlantic; Damage: Broken keel box; Retired[/h][h=4]Morgan Lagravière 11.24.16; Location: Cape of Good Hope; Damage: Sheared rudder; Retired[/h][h=4]Kito de Pavant 12.6.16; Location: Cape of Good Hope; Damage: Broken keel; Retired[/h]

What happened to the steel boats? Presumably they were completely undamaged as they retired shortly after the start when the others disappeared over the horizon.

PS I know they didn't even bother entering, or indeed building any because they wouldn't have been competitive, but if they had managed to build steel boats that were competitive you'd expect them to have sustained damage too, so not really a fair comparison.

 

[GHA]

What happened to the steel boats?.

No idea. That list was in response to an implicit "grp boats race really quickly round the globe and don't get damaged so plastic is fine

Clearly not the case.

Nothing to do with "steel is great" only looking at "grp don't break" .

It does.

 

[lpdsn]

Nothing to do with "steel is great" only looking at "grp don't break" .

It does.

Of course grp will break. But your examples were all of boats where the weight was deliberately kept down to the minimum that was considered adequate and then subjected to conditions and stresses at speeds way beyond typical cruising boats. Effectively the design accepted the risk of some breaking and some broke. But not in catastrophic ways.

Steel breaks too. One amusing example was a tale told by a former colleague of what happened to a ruggedised mining electronic system he was working on. It was encased in half inch thick steel. Nothing could possibly go wrong ... providing the installation engineer didn't accidentally leave it on a conveyor belt that fed a rock crusher.

 

[NormanS]

Of course grp will break. But your examples were all of boats where the weight was deliberately kept down to the minimum that was considered adequate and then subjected to conditions and stresses at speeds way beyond typical cruising boats. Effectively the design accepted the risk of some breaking and some broke. But not in catastrophic ways.

Steel breaks too. One amusing example was a tale told by a former colleague of what happened to a ruggedised mining electronic system he was working on. It was encased in half inch thick steel. Nothing could possibly go wrong ... providing the installation engineer didn't accidentally leave it on a conveyor belt that fed a rock crusher.

That is a good story. However it's highly unlikely that the equipment wasn't lifted off the conveyor, by one of the extremely powerful magnets, which are invariably installed on mining conveyors, immediately prior to any crusher.

Sorry to spoil your (totally irrelevant) story.

 

[lpdsn]

That is a good story. However it's highly unlikely that the equipment wasn't lifted off the conveyor, by one of the extremely powerful magnets, which are invariably installed on mining conveyors, immediately prior to any crusher.

Sorry to spoil your (totally irrelevant) story.

Good to know that you're a know-it-all. I'll have to count your post as an attempt at willy waving.

I have no reason at all to doubt his story as I found him generally reliable and he claimed to be there when they brought it back to the lab.

 

[GHA]

But your examples were all of boats where the weight was deliberately kept down to the minimum that was considered adequate and then subjected to conditions and stresses at speeds way beyond typical cruising boats.

Not my examples

 

[lpdsn]

Not my examples

My apologies, I thought post 412 was yours, although I did see it when it was quoted by others.

 

[GHA]

My apologies, I thought post 412 was yours, although I did see it when it was quoted by others.

It was mine, but the examples were from criteria set by another, fast plastic racing boats don't get smashed. Google came up with the examples - they do!

 

[Achosenman]

It was mine, but the examples were from criteria set by another, fast plastic racing boats don't get smashed. Google came up with the examples - they do!

That was probably me. I said they never disintegrated en-mass. If you believe I was inferring (and I don't infer, I'm far too blunt for that kind of sophistication) that GRP is infallible/unbreakable, nothing could be further from the truth.

My intention was to show that GRP is used in extreme situations (20+kts in heavy sea’s) without falling apart simply by being in that situation. The proponents of steel, IE BS tend to portray steel as all things to all sailors, that is simply not true.

I find sailors are as a rule, conservative. They embrace progress far slower than the rest of the World. We are not experts in all things. (Despite our firm convictions that we are)

I know first-hand what a lightning strike is like. I have had many over the course of 33 years of commercial flying. The last type I flew was composite, (brand new design and plastic) the damage done to that aircraft was far greater than the old aluminium counterparts. As a consequence I’m more concerned about getting a strike in a GRP boat, than hitting a log or heavy sea’s etc. However, sailors this side of the pond don't seem to consider it an issue. I suppose it proves we all have our personal pet fears to deal with.

 

[GHA]

The proponents of steel, IE BS tend to portray steel as all things to all sailors, that is simply not true. .

Completely agree , very small set of circumstances where steel really does start to show the benefits. Though isn't there just one person saying it's all things to all sailors...

 

[Achosenman]

Though isn't there just one person saying it's all things to all sailors...

Now you mention it, I agree.

I have found sailors in general seem to be more balanced in outlook, especially those with extensive cruising experience.

Maybe BS spent too much time crashing into things, rather than sailing to develop that wisdom. ?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

http://www.goodoldboat.com/reader_services/articles/birthoffiberglass.php

In 1935, Corning Glass joined forces with Owens-Illinois, which also had been experimenting with fiberglass, to develop the product further. The word "Fiberglas" (note only one "s") was patented in January 1936, and the two companies merged to become Owens-Corning in 1938. Research showed the glass fibers to be light, yet very strong. On an equal weight basis, a strand of fiberglass is actually stronger than a strand of steel.