The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[Brent Swain]

You highlighted the Fastnet Race of 1979 in your arguments. It was clearly a pointless point if you were only talking about cruisers, so why did you make it?

To counter the claim that plastic boats are NEVER broken by storms.

 

[Brent Swain]

Joshua was basically a caved in hull full of sand and water, while a GRP Bristol Channel Cutter and an Olsson 40 were virtually unscathed according to Lyn and Larry Pardeys article on the subject. Their conclusion was that the better built boats fared better no matter the hull material IIRC. But the main conclusion was that ppl were anchoring too close and NOT leaving when it got ugly.

Did the channel cutter or the Olson have a 40 ft plastic boat land on top of them and disintegrate? Joshua still sails.

 

[lpdsn]

To counter the claim that plastic boats are NEVER broken by storms.

There were dismastings, rudder failures and a lot of 360s in the extreme sea pattern, but broken is not a usual claim that is made. In fact many were lost whilst the boat they abandoned survived. You shouldn't make spurious claim like that without checking the facts.

 

[Brent Swain]

I've not followed this thread but surely it's self-evident that in a major impact situation a steel hulled boat is likely to fare better than a GRP hulled boat.

However, it's an irrelevant argument since the point of sailing is to avoid any impact situations ..... and most of us manage to do that for our entire sailing careers.

It would be similar to saying that the best choice of vehicle for the road would be a Hummer for the same reason. However, the point of driving is not to hit anything and driving the Hummer for the 99.9% of the time when one is not crashing would be a pain in the arse. (setting aside the crumple zone distraction).

Richard

Any offshore cruiser who claims he has never worried about what he might hit in the night , or in a fog, or both combined , is either delusional or lying. Without experiencing the peace of mind a good steel hull gives one in adverse conditions, it is hard for anyone to imagine cruising with that kind of peace of mind .Ditto higher solid lifelines, airtight hatches etc etc. Whether you hit anything or not ,the peace of mind is well worth it.
Justifying fragility in a boat is simply bad seamanship.

 

[Brent Swain]

Yet Webb is still sailing in GRP boats (and wrote about how he thought the Ericsson 37 was likely badly designed wrt the keel)

Yes, some are slow learners!
Chiles seemed very slow from the outset ,given the predictable problems his Ericson gave him.
The guy never was all that swift!

 

[Brent Swain]

I feel Brent you’re totally wrong in your assumptions. Look at how many ships are in fact built in grp that goes to prove your theories are wrong!

Good point! So many freighters, tugs , warships and tankers are being built out of plastic these days!
Why didn't I notice?

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent, you keep citing two disasters or incidents in yachting to support your claims. In your opinion, the Sleavins boat would have survived the collision if it had been steel and your boast of how a steel yacht survived being beaten up when run ashore on a reef, and how a GRP boat would have been destroyed. You then always say, “..and many more examples”.

Can you reference some please? You’ve been asked this before and have failed to respond.

There are photos online of the steel boat Gringo " after she had been T boned amidships by a freighter.
No leaks.
Then there are several of a steel boat off S Africa which had a humpback whale land on her deck . Still no leaks. There are a couple of references. Then you can search Silas Crosby ,and Tagish for more references.
I'm sure the Sleavin family disaster and the Cabo disaster can also be found online.More references.
There was a book on the Pygmalion story ,possibly only available in French .Another reference. Then there are Moitessier's books ,more references.
I was moored alongside a big, "state of the art "mega racer in Cabo in 88 called Pandemonium. Roughly a year later, I saw a photo in Latitude 38 of her upside down, half way to Hawaii .Her keel had fallen off, another reference.

 

[Robin]

To counter the claim that plastic boats are NEVER broken by storms.

Fastnet 79 boats were rolled over, lost rudders in several instances on high techy race boats with composite rudder shafts but hulls were not not smashed up by the seas, indeed many boats that were abandoned by their crews, even those left with main hatches open were found still afloat days later. Frankly using Fastnet 79 to support your stupid prejudices is as dumb as it is offensive especially to those who were actually there or thereabouts in that storm.

Think Titanic and use that to justify the indestructability of steel boats. That is equally dumb and offensive to those whose lives were lost, but then you could care less as long as you promote you own self interests and designs.

 

[Brent Swain]

However, it's an irrelevant argument since the point of sailing is to avoid any impact situations ..... and most of us manage to do that for our entire sailing careers.

It would be similar to saying that the best choice of vehicle for the road would be a Hummer for the same reason. However, the point of driving is not to hit anything and driving the Hummer for the 99.9% of the time when one is not crashing would be a pain in the arse. (setting aside the crumple zone distraction).

Richard
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...teel-boat-building/page32#21MJ7Y4EHI7IVImr.99

Where do I buy your magic chart plotter, which shows all the containers awash, and all other dangerous floating debris out there, it's exact position,at all times?How does it keep track of them? Ditto rocks which have never been charted?
You seem to be living in a "theoretical" fantasy world.

 

[Brent Swain]

I think there’s a place for steel hulls and a place for crude backyard shoestring boat contraction, but it’s not for everyone and those of us who prefer things a little better fettled and finished are making a valid choice.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...teel-boat-building/page32#21MJ7Y4EHI7IVImr.99

I think most back yard boats are far better put together than most commercially built ones, when it comes to function , practicality, and reliability. Commercially built ones focus mainly on cosmetics, which tell you nothing about practicality.
Teak decks and trim are one of many glaring examples.

 

[Brent Swain]

Fastnet 79 boats were rolled over, lost rudders in several instances on high techy race boats with composite rudder shafts but hulls were not not smashed up by the seas, indeed many boats that were abandoned by their crews, even those left with main hatches open were found still afloat days later. Frankly using Fastnet 79 to support your stupid prejudices is as dumb as it is offensive especially to those who were actually there or thereabouts in that storm.

Think Titanic and use that to justify the indestructability of steel boats. That is equally dumb and offensive to those whose lives were lost, but then you could care less as long as you promote you own self interests and designs.

The suggestion being that it is immoral to try learn from disasters, like implying it is immoral for anyone to investigate air line crashes and find their causes, as that would be rude to the victim's families?
What a crock!
As the size of a boat increases, it's strength to weigh ration declines drastically , making the Titanic totally irrelevant to a 36 footer( Law of mechanical similitude).
I have it on this computer, but cant get it to post. So look it up in"Skenes Elements of Yacht Design."
Then try hole and sink a beer can, by running into it with a super tanker, or throwing it at an ice berg.

 

[bbg]

Yes, some are slow learners!

You are at the top of the list.

 

[bbg]

The suggestion being that it is immoral to try learn from disasters, like implying it is immoral for anyone to investigate air line crashes and find their causes, as that would be rude to the victim's families?
What a crock!
As the size of a boat increases, it's strength to weigh ration declines drastically , making the Titanic totally irrelevant to a 36 footer( Law of mechanical similitude).
I have it on this computer, but cant get it to post. So look it up in"Skenes Elements of Yacht Design."
Then try hole and sink a beer can, by running into it with a super tanker, or throwing it at an ice berg.

Try to hole and sink a plastic drink bottle, by running into it with a super tanker, or throwing it at an ice berg.

By the way - steel rusts. GRP doesn't.

 

[john_morris_uk]

However, it's an irrelevant argument since the point of sailing is to avoid any impact situations ..... and most of us manage to do that for our entire sailing careers.

It would be similar to saying that the best choice of vehicle for the road would be a Hummer for the same reason. However, the point of driving is not to hit anything and driving the Hummer for the 99.9% of the time when one is not crashing would be a pain in the arse. (setting aside the crumple zone distraction).

Richard
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...teel-boat-building/page32#21MJ7Y4EHI7IVImr.99

Where do I buy your magic chart plotter, which shows all the containers awash, and all other dangerous floating debris out there, it's exact position,at all times?How does it keep track of them? Ditto rocks which have never been charted?
You seem to be living in a "theoretical" fantasy world.

The fantasy is that GRP boats sink when they hit things. In the vast majority of cases they don’t. I agree that steel boats are slightly less likely to suffer holing (but sometimes even they do). You’ve been asked to provide references to your continual claims that numerous GRP boats are lost at sea and you’ve yet again failed to do so. Pictures of steel yachts surviving incidents of woefully poor seamanship doesn’t cut it. The Sleavins (tragically not keeping watch well enough to avoid being run down by ship unknown) is one disaster out of millions of miles sailed by GRP boats. Tragic for them, but statistically insignificant for 99.99% of sailors.

Your whole argument seems to be based on emotional nonsense.

You then muddy your argument by rabbiting on about spurious ‘luxury trim’. How you finish your boat and how crude and makeshift you’re prepared to live with is a completely separate subject.

 

[JumbleDuck]

To counter the claim that plastic boats are NEVER broken by storms.

A claim which nobody has made. What hull damage do you thank sank or disabled any of those boats?

 

[RichardS]

Any offshore cruiser who claims he has never worried about what he might hit in the night , or in a fog, or both combined , is either delusional or lying. Without experiencing the peace of mind a good steel hull gives one in adverse conditions, it is hard for anyone to imagine cruising with that kind of peace of mind .Ditto higher solid lifelines, airtight hatches etc etc. Whether you hit anything or not ,the peace of mind is well worth it.
Justifying fragility in a boat is simply bad seamanship.

Interesting. For the same reasons, you clearly believe that the best choice of vehicle for the road would be a Hummer.

That just about sums up this thread. :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[JomsViking]

Yes, some are slow learners!
Chiles seemed very slow from the outset ,given the predictable problems his Ericson gave him.
The guy never was all that swift!

Down to insults again. Says more about you than Webb and GRP boats. Enjoy your bubble.

 

[JomsViking]

Did the channel cutter or the Olson have a 40 ft plastic boat land on top of them and disintegrate? Joshua still sails.

Bernard gave up on Joshua and sold it for pennies - it was rebuilt from a bare hull. So yes sails again.

Again, the well-built boats survived no matter what hull material were used.

 

[JomsViking]

While BS is name calling Webb Chiles (and I guess Sir Robin Knox-Johnston if mentioned), is there actually any proof that he has the knowledge needed to support his stance?

Honestly curious to know?

 

[Lucky Duck]

ISTR on one of the Sailing Anarchy threads that at least one poster said he had travelled almost nowhere having frightened himself on an early trip