The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[lpdsn]

While BS is name calling Webb Chiles (and I guess Sir Robin Knox-Johnston if mentioned), is there actually any proof that he's sailed anywhere? Is he just a semi landlocked troll ranting about substandard rust buckets?
Honestly curious to know?

His claims have been queried in a bit more detail on Sailing Anarchy with a few more specific allegations about his depth of sailing experience, although of course it is SA so best to treat everything as unsubstantiated.

I can't even give the thread name on here for you to check it. Something like "The <insert word> Brent Swain Says".

 

[Deleted member 36384]

It is not good form to try and humiliate anyone because they won't back off from a point of view.

The position regarding the integrity of GRP for the high seas has been argued well by folks. Rather than trying to get Brent Swain to convert to the majority view stated in this thread, or justify his claims, people should realise that Brent Swain is, to say the least, tenacious regarding his beliefs: that GRP sailors in deep sea are mad or nervous wrecks as demonstrated by his belief in the frequency of GRP yachts missing on the high sea.

Personally I feel the thread should be left to die off as some posters expectations of getting a result from Brent Swain, I am confident, will not be met. What's left to say, SFA I think.

 

[JomsViking]

It is not good form to try and humiliate anyone because they won't back off from a point of view.

The position regarding the integrity of GRP for the high seas has been argued well by folks. Rather than trying to get Brent Swain to convert to the majority view stated in this thread, or justify his claims, people should realise that Brent Swain is, to say the least, tenacious regarding his beliefs: that GRP sailors in deep sea are mad or nervous wrecks as demonstrated by his belief in the frequency of GRP yachts missing on the high sea.

Personally I feel the thread should be left to die off as some posters expectations of getting a result from Brent Swain, I am confident, will not be met. What's left to say, SFA I think.

Agreed, I'll change the wording and stop trying to understand this cornercase

 

[john_morris_uk]

It is not good form to try and humiliate anyone because they won't back off from a point of view.

The position regarding the integrity of GRP for the high seas has been argued well by folks. Rather than trying to get Brent Swain to convert to the majority view stated in this thread, or justify his claims, people should realise that Brent Swain is, to say the least, tenacious regarding his beliefs: that GRP sailors in deep sea are mad or nervous wrecks as demonstrated by his belief in the frequency of GRP yachts missing on the high sea.

Personally I feel the thread should be left to die off as some posters expectations of getting a result from Brent Swain, I am confident, will not be met. What's left to say, SFA I think.

Wise words.

 

[lpdsn]

It is not good form to try and humiliate anyone because they won't back off from a point of view.

No attempt to humilate him. BS claims substantial experience as a world cruiser and amateur boatbuilder. None of us are in a position to validate that as he comes from a country a few thousand miles to the west. However on another forum people who claim to come from a few miles away from him make contradictory statements. Which claim is true is a difficult one and people are left with no option but to form their own judgement. However I for one can't blindly accept claims of expertise as true just because the expert posts from far away.

This thread will never die so may as well just enjoy what you can of it or ignore it.

 

[Brent Swain]

His claims have been queried in a bit more detail on Sailing Anarchy with a few more specific allegations about his depth of sailing experience, although of course it is SA so best to treat everything as unsubstantiated.

I can't even give the thread name on here for you to check it. Something like "The <insert word> Brent Swain Says".

Here is some of the evidence response I posted to counter the claim that I have little cruising experience, on SA
It contains all the ports I visited on that cruise, which the US govt tends to check with the listed ports , and jail anyone who lies to them.

This my boat in Baja. 1989 .No, those are not BC fir trees in the back ground!
The fleet in La Paz ,Baja. Mine is the green boat. The red one is another 31 I built, which continued on to England.
My current boat, hauled out in Vavau Tonga, for a non stop to Vancouver Island 2003
Leaving Aitutaki, Cook Islands, 2,000
Me on my first boat, in the Marquesas, and her in Robinson's Cove, Moorea1973.

My last boat, Robinson's Cove, Moorea, 1978

My current boat, Niue 2002.

My first boat on the reef, Fiji 1975.Would have survived with minimal damage, had she been steel.

The first 36 I built ,being winched off thru up to 12 ft surf , after 16 days of pounding in up to 12 ft surf, Baja 1982. No serious damage . A plastic boat would have broken up in the first few minutes.

These were all deleted on SA, to support the lies. The moderator refused to post the locations from which my posts had been made, to support the lies, leaving that site with zero credibility .

 

[Brent Swain]

A plastic boat in a totally sheltered cove ,on soft mud ,breaking up under her own weight.

 

[Brent Swain]

You are at the top of the list.

If I were as slow as my critics, I would be doing thing the way they do, taking 1,000 hours to build a hull and decks, instead of 90 hours. I couldn't build one for under $250,000, instead of $17,000. A windvane would cost me $thousands instead of $100. A furler would cost me over $1000 instead of $80 and a 540 GPD water maker would cost me $ten thousand ,instead of under $1,000, An anchor winch would cost me $1,000, instead of under $75 , and I would have taken decades to get out cruising , and many more to semi retire, instead of accomplishing that in my mid 20's.

 

[sarabande]

A plastic boat in a totally sheltered cove ,on soft mud ,breaking up under her own weight.

I think you have 'target fixation' and are seeing what you want to see, and not what is on fact there, viz, an old GRP boat abandoned, having been stripped of all useful gear such as stanchions, rigging, winches etc. I see no evidence at all that her 'weight' is causing any break up of the hull. That picture gives no support at all to your argument that GRP boats are less strong than tin ones. As 'evidence' it is inadmissable.

 

[bbg]

View attachment 72753
A plastic boat in a totally sheltered cove ,on soft mud ,breaking up under her own weight.

NO evidence she is breaking under her own weight. The hull seems intact.

This vessel, on the other hand, is rusting away.

You haven't acknowledged that steel has one major disadvantage compared to GRP. Steel rusts. GRP doesn't.

 

[sarabande]

My first boat on the reef, Fiji 1975.Would have survived with minimal damage, had she been steel.

The first 36 I built ,being winched off thru up to 12 ft surf , after 16 days of pounding in up to 12 ft surf, Baja 1982. No serious damage . A plastic boat would have broken up in the first few minutes.



“To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.”

Oscar Wilde

 

[solent clown]

My first boat on the reef, Fiji 1975.Would have survived with minimal damage, had she been steel.

The first 36 I built ,being winched off thru up to 12 ft surf , after 16 days of pounding in up to 12 ft surf, Baja 1982. No serious damage . A plastic boat would have broken up in the first few minutes.



“To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.”

Oscar Wilde

"to hit one reef may be regarded as a misfortune, to hit two looks like carelessness" hee hee

 

[JumbleDuck]

"to hit one reef may be regarded as a misfortune, to hit two looks like carelessness" hee hee

Are reefs in the Pacific strongly magnetic? Before they get strewn with Mr Swain's designs, I mean.

 

[bbg]

My first boat on the reef, Fiji 1975.Would have survived with minimal damage, had she been steel.

The first 36 I built ,being winched off thru up to 12 ft surf , after 16 days of pounding in up to 12 ft surf, Baja 1982. No serious damage . A plastic boat would have broken up in the first few minutes.



“To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.”

Oscar Wilde

"to hit one reef may be regarded as a misfortune, to hit two looks like carelessness" hee hee

:applause: :highly_amused:

 

[DownWest]

Oi! Don't mock the afflicted..

 

[lpdsn]

View attachment 72743

Here is some of the evidence response I posted to counter the claim that I have little cruising experience, on SA
It contains all the ports I visited on that cruise, which the US govt tends to check with the listed ports , and jail anyone who lies to them.
View attachment 72744
This my boat in Baja. 1989 .No, those are not BC fir trees in the back ground!View attachment 72745
The fleet in La Paz ,Baja. Mine is the green boat. The red one is another 31 I built, which continued on to England.View attachment 72746
My current boat, hauled out in Vavau Tonga, for a non stop to Vancouver Island 2003View attachment 72747
Leaving Aitutaki, Cook Islands, 2,000View attachment 72748
Me on my first boat, in the Marquesas, and her in Robinson's Cove, Moorea1973.
View attachment 72749
My last boat, Robinson's Cove, Moorea, 1978
View attachment 72750
My current boat, Niue 2002.
View attachment 72751
My first boat on the reef, Fiji 1975.Would have survived with minimal damage, had she been steel.
View attachment 72752
The first 36 I built ,being winched off thru up to 12 ft surf , after 16 days of pounding in up to 12 ft surf, Baja 1982. No serious damage . A plastic boat would have broken up in the first few minutes.

These were all deleted on SA, to support the lies. The moderator refused to post the locations from which my posts had been made, to support the lies, leaving that site with zero credibility .

I'm no doubting you've been sailing occasionally.

What I see however is that 99.9% of you posts simply say Steel in Better.

I did once see you post on welding.

I've never seen you post anything on the ColRegs or collision avoidance. You must have formed some opinions given the number of serious collisions you mention.

I've never seen you post anything on navigation or pilotage. Again you appear to have hard lessons but no 'learnings'.

I've never seen you post on any aspect of sail trim, sail handling, sail choice, rigging or anything like that.

I don't even know your preferred anchor or anchoring technique. Some posters have that tatooed on their arm.

I've never seen you post anything on fouling, anti-fouling, managing fouling on long trans-oceanic trips.

I've never seen you post anything on crew, watch systems. Don't you have opinions on crew management, single handing or anything like that?

I've never seen you post anything on local knowledge for somewhere you've recently been.

No tips on bureacracy and officialdom in any nation state.

Simply put, some people have a pattern of posting that says quite plausibly, been there, done that. You don't.

That's why I have some doubts about your having significant extensive or current experience.

 

[Brent Swain]

I think you have 'target fixation' and are seeing what you want to see, and not what is on fact there, viz, an old GRP boat abandoned, having been stripped of all useful gear such as stanchions, rigging, winches etc. I see no evidence at all that her 'weight' is causing any break up of the hull. That picture gives no support at all to your argument that GRP boats are less strong than tin ones. As 'evidence' it is inadmissable

Here is another picture of her. Keel broken off, a big split all along one side , all in a perfectly sheltered cove, zero wave action, on soft mud you sink up to your ankles in. Salvaging stanchions and other deck hardware didn't make her any weaker.
You have "target Fixation " a "willful blindness" a "tunnel vision" when shown the fragility of stock plastic boats.
Steel boats don't break up in those conditions ,nor in far more severe conditions.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Here is another picture of her. Keel broken off, a big split all along one side , all in a perfectly sheltered cove, zero wave action, on soft mud you sink up to your ankles in.

And clearly after many years of abandonment. So what?

 

[Brent Swain]

I'm no doubting you've been sailing occasionally.

What I see however is that 99.9% of you posts simply say Steel in Better.

I did once see you post on welding.

I've never seen you post anything on the ColRegs or collision avoidance. You must have formed some opinions given the number of serious collisions you mention.

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Yes, a steel hull drastically reduces the consequences of a collision.
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I've never seen you post anything on navigation or pilotage. Again you appear to have hard lessons but no 'learnings'.
_________________________________________________________________
Check origamiboats home, for a recent discussion on a current navigation challenge.)
_________________________________________________________________________________
I've never seen you post on any aspect of sail trim, sail handling, sail choice, rigging or anything like that.
________________________________________________________________________________
Responding to counter naive comments on steel boats, mainly by people who have never owned, built, lived aboard, nor maintained one for decades, doesn't leave me any time to do that. I am only one , with all my internet tine stolen by those who wont leave me time for anything else. I could post lots, but would have to spend the entire day, as I am grossly outnumbered by jeering hecklers , who systematically block any info I could pass on, on other subjects.Blame them, then ask me anything on the origamiboats site, which is far better moderated, when it comes to career hecklers, with nothing useful to contribute.
So what have you to offer, in terms of resolving the two biggest problems facing wanna be cruisers, time and money?What time and money saving innovations have you come up with ?What have you posted on that issue?
NONE?
That is what I though!
If you want that kind of info, ask on the origamiboats site. I have heard that, for every good idea posted on British sites, there are dozens of jeering, full time hecklers ,who make a full time hobby out of discouraging anyone from trying to pass on anything.
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I don't even know your preferred anchor or anchoring technique. Some posters have that tatooed on their arm.
________________________________________________________________________________
Come in fast , drop your hook, and let it stop the boat. If there is a problem, it wont stop the boat. Build your own anchor winch, out of all stainless, no mixing of metals, for under $75. Learn to do your own metal work , so you can do it properly.
____________________________________________________________________________

I've never seen you post anything on fouling, anti-fouling, managing fouling on long trans-oceanic trips.
________________________________________________________________________________
Big problem, especially on aluminium boats, on which it is hard to find an antifouling which wont eat the aluminium.
Was in Samoa with fouling problems. Could be hard on the wind to Tonga.So I pulled a big poly tarp under the boat, and let it float up against the hull.Then I poured a gallon of bleach in ,and let it soak overnight. Next day, all the fouling fell off, leaving a super clean hull.
____________________________________________________________________________

I've never seen you post anything on crew, watch systems. Don't you have opinions on crew management, single handing or anything like that?
_______________________________________________________________________________
I have always single handed. No crew problems that way. My crew ,Me I and myself ,get along quite well.
_____________________________________________________________________________

I've never seen you post anything on local knowledge for somewhere you've recently been.
____________________________________________________________________________
Posted a lot of that on SA. It all got deleted. So why did I bother ?
_________________________________________________________________________________

No tips on bureacracy and officialdom in any nation state.
________________________________________________________________________________
Clear in at the tiniest place they will let you clear into. Far simpler. They are there for the same reason you are ,to get away from the bureaucratic bull.
______________________________________________________________________________

Simply put, some people have a pattern of posting that says quite plausibly, been there, done that. You don't.

That's why I have some doubts about your having significant extensive or current experience.

_________________________________________________________________________
There, that should be enough to keep the full time hobby hecklers, screaming for days.
I really see no reason to believe YOU have any experience, whatsoever, on the subjects you attack me on.ZERO experience! You say you do? I say you are lying, just as you accuse me of doing!You are a targeting heckler, stalking me across the internet. Sure would love to met you.
Are you just another teenager, in your mothers basement , masquerading as someone who has 'Expertise, in things you know little about.
Or is this just another alias for "Smackdaddy" the "Expert" guy who lost his Catalina, by tying her up bow on to a concrete dock with no spring lines, in a very exposed location? The guy who has spent years trying to drink, and brag up the nerve to leave the intercoastal waterway, and do the death defying crossing, 90 miles to the Bahamas? So give us the equivalent proof to that which I have posted ,that you have any steel boat cruising, building, maintaining , and living aboard experience that I have posted.

 

[sarabande]

"Big problem, especially on aluminium boats, on which it is hard to find an antifouling which wont eat the aluminium.
Was in Samoa with fouling problems. Could be hard on the wind to Tonga.So I pulled a big poly tarp under the boat, and let it float up against the hull.Then I poured a gallon of bleach in ,and let it soak overnight. Next day, all the fouling fell off, leaving a super clean hull."


Tosh, absolute tosh. There are numerous AFs designed for aluminium boats. I sailed on several big ali racers in the 1970s and not one of them had its hull eaten away.

BTW, your environmental credentials .... bleach poured willy-nilly into a fragile environment in Polynesia ? ? ?


And your anchoring technique makes you a total liability and risk to other boats if your anchor fails to grab.