The long slow death of the cruiser racer...?

[flaming]

I think you already know the answer.....

You have already listed the non alternatives....

Anyway my research fwiw.... Not new. But available under 10 years old. And all no good, according to you??!!

X34. X37? Expensive.
Dufour 34p, 36p
Dehler - various
Arcona. Expensive
Grand Soleil?
Elan

So how about the cruisiest race boat instead??

I think if someone could stretch to it X34 / X37 is the closest?

I think the French pogo/rm etc fast cruising boats aren't raced because of handicap problems??

I think it is up to you to come up with the definitive answer......

Well taking your list - we have to scratch the new fat bottomed Elans. They've proved themselves to be pretty useless on the racecourse, mostly beause they're utter pants upwind.
Dufour, maybe, but the brand as a whole do not have a racing reputation and the specs of the 36 make me doubt it's potential on the ww/lw track.
Dehler, yep, granted.
Arcona, going up in price point, the 380 as reviewed by YM was a £250k boat.
X-Yachts. Neither the X34 or the X37 are current models. I've raced against both of them a lot, and they are fantastic boats. The new XP33 is in a very different direction to the 34, and would put off most cruisers. The new XP38 ticks the boxes as a cruiser racer, but second hand ones from 2014 are well north of £200k.
Grand Soleil. Smallest in the current range is the 39, and 2014 examples are even more expensive than the XP38.

But here's the thing. The racing in this size and type (non planing, fairly conservative, cruiser racers) is currently really sparse. If the 109s hadn't lost their start and are sailing against us, there would be 3 boats in our class in the winter series. Back when I started racing this boat we had a minimum of 15 boats on the line, and there was always a brand new boat every series.
Then the bulk of the class consisted of a mix of Elan 37 and later 380, Benetau First 34.7, 36.7 and later 35, Bavaria Match 35 and 38, Dehler 36 and later 34RS. Then we also had the X yachts, the 362 and the 34, the old HODs, a few Archambault 35s and some Corby 33s.

Of that lot, you can clearly see that most of the fleet was made up of the "cheaper" end of the market. The Elans, Beneteaus, Dehlers and Bavarias. The only one of those still making boats that you could call viable cruiser racers are Dehler.
All of the other options still available are a lot pricier.

 

[roblpm]

Subsequent to my list post i found this:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=171372&page=1

Which made me feel a bit foolish as is basically the same list which you have already discussed.

So the answer is Dehler? The used models are confusing.....

As I mentioned earlier there is a Dehler 32 coming to the Forth. Will be interesting to see how he gets on against the J109s, J97, J122, X332, J92 Corby 29s in the fleet. Although I am not sure if he will race in the series that goes up to Christmas.

As someone mentioned though this is mainly short fully crewed races around shortish courses.

 

[claymore]

I think I expected to see the Sigma 33 and 36 mentioned in this excellent thread. An earlier post was pondering over how many are raced and cruised and certainly in Scotland there are Sigmas put to this dual-use.

 

[roblpm]

I think I expected to see the Sigma 33 and 36 mentioned in this excellent thread. An earlier post was pondering over how many are raced and cruised and certainly in Scotland there are Sigmas put to this dual-use.

I think flaming is talking about the solent where everyone is loaded and buys new boats......

I think his point is that if you buy a sigma 33 you will never beat a jpk 1010?

 

[roblpm]

Actually looking at the irc ratings it appears a random sigma 38 is rated at 0.982 and a jpk 10.10 is rated at 1.008

So ignore my previous post.

And then i think his contention is that round the cans the jpk will beat the sigma on handicap despite being 5 feet shorter.

 

[flaming]

I think I expected to see the Sigma 33 and 36 mentioned in this excellent thread. An earlier post was pondering over how many are raced and cruised and certainly in Scotland there are Sigmas put to this dual-use.

Ah, but the thrust of my question is really over new boats that are available now, and where the future of cruiser racing lies. The last Sigma was made in 1993!

When I saw that Beneteau had withdrawn the First series, with no announcement of a replacement for their cruiser racers, it made me realise that the choice is really limited.

 

[flaming]

I think flaming is talking about the solent where everyone is loaded and buys new boats......

I think his point is that if you buy a sigma 33 you will never beat a jpk 1010?

Well someone has to buy the new boats for there to be 25 year old Sigmas for others to race! But right now, that seems in jeopardy, because there aren't any new boats to choose from!

 

[roblpm]

Well someone has to buy the new boats for there to be 25 year old Sigmas for others to race! But right now, that seems in jeopardy, because there aren't any new boats to choose from!

Absolutely.

My concern is that when I have finally got enough money and time to buy something bigger than my current tub in about 5 years time there wont be many 5-10 year old boats in my price range. As you say I think an XP38 will still be a fortune in 5 years time.

I could buy an older boat but I am really more interested in sailing than boat fettling. (Unlike my father who built a boat, then had another one which we never sailed anywhere!).

 

[roblpm]

(Crikey this is so much more fun than the work I am supposed to be doing. Maybe I should be a yacht broker when I grow up?!).

 

[claymore]

I think flaming is talking about the solent where everyone is loaded and buys new boats......

I think his point is that if you buy a sigma 33 you will never beat a jpk 1010?

Possibly so, however with a Sigma you'd probably have not spent so much.....

 

[Racecruiser]

Very interesting points from Flaming and others. There really doesn't seem to be a new genuine racer/cruiser with adequate accommodation, rewarding performance and the ability to sail to a rating across a range of conditions.

If I was in the market I would want:
Around 35 ft LOA.
Draft up to 2.2 metres pref no more than 2.0.
Symmetrical spinnaker and pole plus Asymmetric(s) off the pole when set low or perhaps off a small prodder.
Non-T shaped keel.
Deep single rudder.
Proper heads by the companionway.
Bow and stern double cabins.
2 Saloon and 2 fold down pipe berths assuming beam can accomodate.
Table.
Proper nav station.
Single wheel steering.
Double spreader fractional rig reasonably tweaky.
Stiff enough upwind.
Fast enough offwind with surfing ability.

When I looked at the GT 35 cruiser at Southampton a couple of years ago they had drawings of another Stephen Jones design - a racer/cruiser around 33 ft. No doubt nothing progressed but the plans looked interesting. Having done many miles on a Prima 38 in the past I would take any design by him seriously.

A gap in the market but who can produce a boat at the right price sufficiently well built? Perhaps Elan (our 295 is genuinely dual-role and we can get into the silverware when we do things right) but their current range misses the mark as Flaming says.

 

[flaming]

So if we seem to be agreed that these boats are not being made any more... Why?

Is it just so much easier to make money building cruisers? Is the demand to small?

And then, what happens to the sailors? Is this a symptom of the decline in interest in this type of racing, or are the sailors still out there looking for the right sort of boat?

 

[Tranona]

So if we seem to be agreed that these boats are not being made any more... Why?

Is it just so much easier to make money building cruisers? Is the demand to small?

And then, what happens to the sailors? Is this a symptom of the decline in interest in this type of racing, or are the sailors still out there looking for the right sort of boat?

All of that! The overall market for new yachts in the UK has declined, for all sorts of reasons, not least saturation and plentiful supply of existing boats. The volume markets are elsewhere so what is on offer here is a by product of what builders offer in other markets.

The cruiser/racer market has been declining steadily for many years from the heyday of the 80's when the type dominated the UK market.

 

[dom]

So if we seem to be agreed that these boats are not being made any more... Why?

Is it just so much easier to make money building cruisers? Is the demand to small?

And then, what happens to the sailors? Is this a symptom of the decline in interest in this type of racing, or are the sailors still out there looking for the right sort of boat?

Funnily enough I recently asked the MD of a big French builder almost exactly this question. His answer:

1. Cruiser/racers cost quite a lot more to build than pure cruisers: more complex and much stronger rig, better foils, higher-grade rudder bearings, better deck hardware, etc. On top of this they are typically sold ex-sails, which can come as a shock to non-track types..

2. Next comes the problem of space in the sub-40' market: apparently leisure clients today 'need' easy access from the stern, cockpits must be easy to walkthrough and they 'need' 3-double cabins and 2x heads. This creates all sorts of problems in terms of hull-design and also weight, unless one goes the carbon route .....yet more ££££s.

3. There has also apparently been a change in fashion: the average chap who used to race say a 40-55' cruiser is I'm told now going for an older (or poss X/Arcona) fast cruiser and also something sportier for the track.

4. Don't forget how many race boats are now logoed-up, which of course opens the door to all sorts of tax incentives. In some cases the headline cost can be divided by 2 on tax considerations alone. And of course it is hard for anything cruisy to match say a Ker 40 on raw advertising-friendly sex appeal alone!

4. To cap it all comes the problem that racers today all want different things and many want mods: "for my rating system could you not adjust ......."​

In short, this is a marginally profitable sector in an increasingly bifurcating yachting market. End of an era I s'pose, but kid of makes sense? That said, there is still talk of reopening some of these brands as high-end BMW M type offerings; so all may not lost (watch this space). Then again there's the rub, does one really want to track a road car weighed down by electric seats, heavy a/c systems, radios, tvs, spare tyres, lost coke cans......

 

[flaming]

4. Don't forget how many race boats are now logoed-up, which of course opens the door to all sorts of tax incentives. In some cases the headline cost can be divided by 2 on tax considerations alone. And of course it is hard for anything cruisy to match say a Ker 40 on raw advertising-friendly sex appeal alone!

That's about the only thing I disagree with. There are no sponsored boats, or even "named after the company that the owner runs" boats in our fleet. I can think of one that's a regular in the Solent, and I don't think any of the Fast 40s are. At least certainly not obviously!

In short, this is a marginally profitable sector in an increasingly bifurcating yachting market. End of an era I s'pose, but kid of makes sense? That said, there is still talk of reopening some of these brands as high-end BMW M type offerings; so all may not lost (watch this space). Then again there's the rub, does one really want to track a road car weighed down by electric seats, heavy a/c systems, radios, tvs, spare tyres, lost coke cans......

And there, I hope, is the upside. If we can persuade sailors that the days of racing the same boat you cruise are over, then we might finally be able to persuade the rating office to write a rule that encourages planing boats in smaller sizes and move the sport forward.

 

[bedouin]

And there, I hope, is the upside. If we can persuade sailors that the days of racing the same boat you cruise are over, then we might finally be able to persuade the rating office to write a rule that encourages planing boats in smaller sizes and move the sport forward.

I think I have misunderstood your position on this - I thought you wanted the opposite.

If you want new people coming in and larger fleets then you need people to be able to race in more cruising-oriented boats. Otherwise how are people to make the move from cruising to racing?

 

[dom]

That's about the only thing I disagree with. There are no sponsored boats, or even "named after the company that the owner runs" boats in our fleet. I can think of one that's a regular in the Solent, and I don't think any of the Fast 40s are. At least certainly not obviously!


And there, I hope, is the upside. If we can persuade sailors that the days of racing the same boat you cruise are over, then we might finally be able to persuade the rating office to write a rule that encourages planing boats in smaller sizes and move the sport forward.

Re your second point, fully agree in fact such a shift is way overdue IMHO - a nautical E Series estate for the family and a GT3, or even go-cart super-dinghy equivalent for the track!

Re tax, the UK is obviously just one market, but yes it is tricky to implement something that works with Revenue and Customs. Legislation is light in this area, but large companies generally have little trouble sponsoring events and sometimes boats (though these are typically bigger ticket items like Volvo, etc). For it to work, the decision to sponsor the boat has to be thoroughly investigated, commercially plausible and properly documented. It must include an analysis as to exactly what each project brings in terms of cost/benefit, relevant exposure, target market, etc.

The trouble comes more with smaller companies where documented evidence is harder to come by and especially where the owner/partner/director wants to punt the boat around with his mates. This creates a tricky overlap between the personal interests of the owner and the activities he carries out in the name of advertising his company. It's a complex balance -- tell the Revenue that the boat does indeed represent bona fide marketing and they may say, "Cool, we'll impute a suitable wage for the time the owner spends on the boat!"

So basically you're right, the current practical borderline seems to be somewhere between Fast 40s and the more overtly professional TP52s, etc.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So if we seem to be agreed that these boats are not being made any more... Why?

Is it just so much easier to make money building cruisers? Is the demand to small?

Is it perhaps to do with working lives. A cruiser has o be built to last, what, ten? twenty? relatively trouble-free years before entering MOB territory while a racer might have two or three years (please correct me if I'm wrong here) of competitive life and can therefore be built correspondingly lighter.

Or, to put it another way, would building a racing boat in such a way that it had a couple of decades useful life past its competitive years not stop it being competitive in the first place?

 

[flaming]

So basically you're right, the current practical borderline seems to be somewhere between Fast 40s and the more overtly professional TP52s, etc.

So very little to do with the sort of people currently sailing mid 30 foot cruiser racers then!

 

[dom]

So very little to do with the sort of people currently sailing mid 30 foot cruiser racers then!

In terms of a current tax angle for that segment in the UK ....erm no