The long slow death of the cruiser racer...?

[flaming]

Is it perhaps to do with working lives. A cruiser has o be built to last, what, ten? twenty? relatively trouble-free years before entering MOB territory while a racer might have two or three years (please correct me if I'm wrong here) of competitive life and can therefore be built correspondingly lighter.

Or, to put it another way, would building a racing boat in such a way that it had a couple of decades useful life past its competitive years not stop it being competitive in the first place?

Actually with the way the age allowance works with IRC, pretty old boats can be extremely competitive, I certainly don't feel that the boat being 12 years old was the reason we were 6th at Cowes this year, I think it had more to do with all the good sailors on the boats in front of us! There were plenty of newer boats behind us! Plus IRC as it currently is encourages medium displacement non planing designs, so shaving every last gram off is not all that important in the design of an IRC winner. Certainly not until you get to the Fast 40 type of boat!

The issue of boats going soft as they age is much bigger in OD classes, where the top guys will buy a new hull every few years.

 

[dunedin]

I think the manufacturers are just reflecting the realities and practicalities of this market. Whilst a fast cruiser can sell, and so can pure race boats - the compromise in the middle doesn't quite work.

There may be options for going occasional "cruises" in boats kept primarily in race trim - particularly
(a) club racing of older fast cruisers - as Rob mentions in one class on the Forth, and the number of competitive Moody 336's on the Clyde
(b) occasional "cruises" on racer/cruisers in places where cruising is typically to the next marina pontoon, or worst case a visitor mooring and call a water taxi.

But from my experience it would be far too much time and effort switching mode in a boat actually used for more serious cruising.
My previous boat (also an Elan) had been campaigned successfully when new, apparently with some local dealer assistance. Hence as an ex dinghy racer, we periodically considered doing a few regattas for fun - but over 10 years we never did it. It was just too much effort and cost to swap mode.

At a rough guess we would need to remove around half a ton (!) of cruising gear to be anywhere near competitive - plus hire a van for the duration to store the stuff. And no point in racing if just making numbers up at the back of the fleet.
Where is this weight ? Well in cruising mode:
- over sized bower anchor and 80m chain
- dinghy, outboard and 10 litres fuel
- over 300 litres of fuel and domestic water over the "sniff of diesel" that racers seem to use
- plus masses of other cruising gear and junk
Also, the expensive interior woodwork and cushions tends to get trashed by spinnakers and crews in harnesses etc (on the basis of our previous boat and others we looked at second hand)

Finally, rounding up 10 or so crew for a couple of events is too much hasssle (unless in Med or Caribbean where more volunteers)
Hence, if really wanted to go racing it would be cheaper and more effective to have two boats - a true cruiser and a small dedicated racer, which needed less crew and less maintenance (a J70/80, Hunter 707 or Sonata, JPK etc depending on location and budget)

 

[flaming]

I think the manufacturers are just reflecting the realities and practicalities of this market. Whilst a fast cruiser can sell, and so can pure race boats - the compromise in the middle doesn't quite work.

There may be options for going occasional "cruises" in boats kept primarily in race trim - particularly
(a) club racing of older fast cruisers - as Rob mentions in one class on the Forth, and the number of competitive Moody 336's on the Clyde
(b) occasional "cruises" on racer/cruisers in places where cruising is typically to the next marina pontoon, or worst case a visitor mooring and call a water taxi.

But from my experience it would be far too much time and effort switching mode in a boat actually used for more serious cruising.
My previous boat (also an Elan) had been campaigned successfully when new, apparently with some local dealer assistance. Hence as an ex dinghy racer, we periodically considered doing a few regattas for fun - but over 10 years we never did it. It was just too much effort and cost to swap mode.

At a rough guess we would need to remove around half a ton (!) of cruising gear to be anywhere near competitive - plus hire a van for the duration to store the stuff. And no point in racing if just making numbers up at the back of the fleet.
Where is this weight ? Well in cruising mode:
- over sized bower anchor and 80m chain
- dinghy, outboard and 10 litres fuel
- over 300 litres of fuel and domestic water over the "sniff of diesel" that racers seem to use
- plus masses of other cruising gear and junk
Also, the expensive interior woodwork and cushions tends to get trashed by spinnakers and crews in harnesses etc (on the basis of our previous boat and others we looked at second hand)

Finally, rounding up 10 or so crew for a couple of events is too much hasssle (unless in Med or Caribbean where more volunteers)
Hence, if really wanted to go racing it would be cheaper and more effective to have two boats - a true cruiser and a small dedicated racer, which needed less crew and less maintenance (a J70/80, Hunter 707 or Sonata, JPK etc depending on location and budget)

An absolutely fantastic example, in my opinion, of why RORC's current policy of trying to grow participation by encouraging cruiser racer types in the smaller sizes simply doesn't work. It is now a fiction that a significant number of people cruise and race the same boat, yet RORC persist with policies designed only to help anyone that does and annoy everyone else. Meanwhile the cruiser racer has just about died out as a new boat option and the competitive boats being built in the mid 30 foot region are made for the race course boats with interiors that no cruiser would tolerate, yet still sail around at displacement speeds.
Absolutely no part of that situation is going to grow the sport of yacht racing.

Not having sail material etc as part of the handicap puts off cruisers from trying racing, as there is a big price in terms of sails, and a big commitment in terms of emptying the boat and practising with your crew before you can ever hope to take on the JPKs etc.
Insisting that everyone has to carry cushions etc when racing and writing a rule that penalises boats that plane puts off racers who are wondering why the rich boys get to plane in their new fast 40s with no interior whilst the designs that work in the 30 foot arena are stuck in the 80s digging holes in the water with symmetrical kites, on the fiction that we're all off cruising next week.

In my humble opinion, the only way you're going to grow the sport now is if there are plenty of cheapish boats available that people currently in their 30s and 40s and just getting to the point where they might be able to afford a small yacht, and who are used to SB3s and all the planing dinghies, are going to look at and go "now that looks like fun."

 

[lw395]

An absolutely fantastic example, in my opinion, of why RORC's current policy of trying to grow participation by encouraging cruiser racer types in the smaller sizes simply doesn't work. It is now a fiction that a significant number of people cruise and race the same boat, yet RORC persist with policies designed only to help anyone that does and annoy everyone else. Meanwhile the cruiser racer has just about died out as a new boat option and the competitive boats being built in the mid 30 foot region are made for the race course boats with interiors that no cruiser would tolerate, yet still sail around at displacement speeds.
Absolutely no part of that situation is going to grow the sport of yacht racing.

Not having sail material etc as part of the handicap puts off cruisers from trying racing, as there is a big price in terms of sails, and a big commitment in terms of emptying the boat and practising with your crew before you can ever hope to take on the JPKs etc.
Insisting that everyone has to carry cushions etc when racing and writing a rule that penalises boats that plane puts off racers who are wondering why the rich boys get to plane in their new fast 40s with no interior whilst the designs that work in the 30 foot arena are stuck in the 80s digging holes in the water with symmetrical kites, on the fiction that we're all off cruising next week.

In my humble opinion, the only way you're going to grow the sport now is if there are plenty of cheapish boats available that people currently in their 30s and 40s and just getting to the point where they might be able to afford a small yacht, and who are used to SB3s and all the planing dinghies, are going to look at and go "now that looks like fun."

I don't disagree, but the flip side is that the harbours of the UK are mostly ram-packed with cruisers which could be raced. It seems more sensible to try to get some of these boats racing than to look for people who currently don't own a boat but have £200k to fund a proper IRC campaign.
If people want dinghy type speed and thrills, that's available very easily in dinghies and more so with cats.
In many ways the slower yachts offer better racing in tactical terms, which is why there's more x-boats than sportsboats at Cowes for instance.

 

[MissFitz]

If people want dinghy type speed and thrills, that's available very easily in dinghies and more so with cats.

Some people prefer not going in the water.,,,,,,,

 

[claymore]

Or Micro cuppers which are relatively inexpensive to buy and maintain, only need a crew of 3 and can be dry sailed

 

[flaming]

I don't disagree, but the flip side is that the harbours of the UK are mostly ram-packed with cruisers which could be raced.

Could they, really?

If you look at the way cruising boat design has gone, there is far more divergence in design between cruiser racer and cruiser now than there ever has been. All the recent designs of cruisers from the big French yards are, I would suggest, really not suitable at all for racing with cockpit tables blocking crew from crossing the cockpit, coachroof mainsheet tracks and woefully undersized deck equipment. And that's before you even start thinking about putting some decent rags on them. Older cruisers, maybe, but that's kinda my point...

We've seen it a few times in our fleet over the years. First event of the season and someone's entered a cruising boat, an Oceanis or Bav. And there it is, with a set of panelled laminate sails, though just one jib on the furler, and a new kite. And always they do 3 or 4 races finishing a long way adrift of the fleet and are never seen again, which is a massive shame. But I do think that trying to grow racing by attracting cruisers who have never raced to enter their own boat is doomed to failure. You're asking them to spend thousands of pounds on kit, invest an awful lot of time in practicing all before they've actually got the racing bug, and when they have no chance of competing with people who have been doing this for years.

A far better route would be to get those people into racing by crewing with others. Then if they decide to take it on in their own right they are at least going into it with their eyes open regarding the suitability of their boat and the level of competition they should expect.

Whereas those who have grown up racing dinghies but are now reaching middle age, they're a much more natural target. Perhaps a little tired of towing boats around the country, or fed up of wetsuits and going swimming, doing well professionally, ripe for persuading that yacht racing racing is a good idea.... And of course it only takes one in seven or so to actually buy the boat...

And yet what are we offering those people who are used to planing boats? Is that going to appeal?

 

[adwuk]

One cruiser that looked like it might be fun to race is the RM 1070. Saw it at SIBS over the last couple of years, although have no idea how competitive it would really be. Anyone tried?

 

[Bobc]

The dinghy market has similar problems.

Sailing club memberships are in decline. The number of people regularly racing at clubs is in decline. The number of Open meetings and the turnout at such events is in decline.

As a result, a lot of the "performance classes" you used to see around are either in decline or have virtually disapearerd altogether.

I think that this has a lot to do with the changes in our lifestyles and working hours. People have less leisure time now, and the weekends are no longer "free" as they used to be. Add to that, the difficulties in getting a regular crew together (who also have less free time), and I think you have the root of the problem.

There are a lot of people at my local dinghy club who struggle to find just one regular crew, so either end-up giving up racing or buy a single-hander.

The manufacturers also see this, and gear themselves up to move to where the money is (which apparently is in motor boats and charter/weekend cruising yachts at the moment).

 

[MissFitz]

There are a lot of people at my local dinghy club who struggle to find just one regular crew, so either end-up giving up racing or buy a single-hander.

Which, in turn, further limits participation as all the fun single-handers require a crew weight of at least 75kg. Not that I'm bitter or anything.

(And yes, I know there are Moths - but they are damned expensive, require a lot of practice & are not really suitable for open water.)

 

[Judders]

I think there is a lot in this thread about what racers expect of a boat and most of it is very good, but on the flip side, what is 'standard' in cruising has changed out of recognition in the thirteen years in which I have been yachting which is why marinas where new boats are kept are full of such wide, high ugly boats with massive headroom, huge sterns and bugger all seakeeping ability. The two arenas have drifted ever further apart. Cruising now seems to not be about sailing. Or at least the cruising done by the first purchaser who the current crop of manufacturers are primarily interested in.

 

[Ingwe]

I know where Flaming is coming from with all the rating rules discouraging planing boats below 40 feet, I suspect at this point in time this is only partly to do with "trying to preserve the existing fleet" that we have been being told for years, the bigger issue is that the rating offices realise that they can't possibly fairly rate planing boats and non planing boats in the same fleet with the current systems that are in place (I am not sure that they can rate different planing boats against each other fairly either from looking at the fast 30 or HPR results).

The only way I can see round this is to completely start from scratch with the way that we decide who has won a race between a group of dissimilar boats. What I think might work reasonably well is that each boats "rating" would be an estimated set of polars for it. For inshore races the start boat would need to have a wind sensor with a laptop recording the wind speed / angle throughout the race or for an offshore race you would need a fairly accurate GRIB file. The committee run the race as we do now and enter the finish times into the computer. At the end of the race a routing program on the computer runs a virtual race for each boat round the course using the boats polars and the wind shifts / gusts that the committee boat have recorded (or GRIB file) to calculate what the optimum time for each boat would have been (if data is available tides could be included in this calculation as well). The winning boat would then be the boat who was the closest in percent terms to their optimal time. Hopefully this would give you a situation where the winning boat was the one who had made the fewest mistakes as opposed to who had spent the most money, which I think is what most of us are after.

I know doing something like this is a lot more complicated and is probably too complicated to explain to newcomers to the sport which is why it will never happen, but I don't see any other way to rate boats that suddenly go possibly four knots faster with one knot of extra wind strength. I haven't raced dinghies seriously since skiff hull forms became common but I imagine that they are having the same rating problems - which will only get worse as more boats start to foil and I can't see why a similar system couldn't work for them as well.

 

[flaming]

I know where Flaming is coming from with all the rating rules discouraging planing boats below 40 feet, I suspect at this point in time this is only partly to do with "trying to preserve the existing fleet" that we have been being told for years, the bigger issue is that the rating offices realise that they can't possibly fairly rate planing boats and non planing boats in the same fleet with the current systems that are in place (I am not sure that they can rate different planing boats against each other fairly either from looking at the fast 30 or HPR results).

The rating office have my deepest sympathies when it comes to the challenges of rating a planing and non planing boat fairly. And to be completely fair to them they have for years published guidelines to clubs that class splits should be by DLR, and not just rating. The problem has been that except in a very few circumstances the entries have not justified a separate class. So the sporty boats get lumped in with the regular boats, and normally end up getting thrashed. Which hardly encourages more owners to buy something fast.
Added to which is that it's just not meaningful racing to race a Farr280 against a First 40, even if you could somehow get the rating system right. Racing where one boat goes 6 knots upwind and 14 downwind, and the other does 7.5 upwind and 9 downwind is not racing.

However, what we have now is the situation that cruiser racer fleets are dying, and dying fast. In our class there are only 3 boats left. Without the silver lining that the 109s can't get a start either, so have joined us it really would be slightly absurd. And I would never have guessed that a few years back. And it's a huge shame, we've had some fantastic racing over the years. As someone said often slow boats have the best tactical racing! But unfortunately we do not seem to have any new boats joining the fleet. And the slow drip of boats leaving has now become critical.

So clearly the steps that the clubs, the rating office, and the sailors have been taking to grow the sport are not working for this type of sailing. So we can either do more of the same, and expect the decline to continue - especially as the options for new boats seem so limited - or we could do something different.

As to what that is....!?

 

[PeteCooper]

Or Micro cuppers which are relatively inexpensive to buy and maintain, only need a crew of 3 and can be dry sailed

The Euro Micro Series for 2016 had 93 entries - on the continent they are very popular. Lots of new boats being built in Poland - and available for less than new sails for a larger boat.

 

[Ingwe]

Added to which is that it's just not meaningful racing to race a Farr280 against a First 40, even if you could somehow get the rating system right. Racing where one boat goes 6 knots upwind and 14 downwind, and the other does 7.5 upwind and 9 downwind is not racing.

I think that this is the type of handicap racing the we will all have to get used to though, as there are so many disparate types and speeds of boats now that it is often a case that you are racing against the clock as opposed to any boat on boat tactics coming into play. For our Friday night racing in Plymouth we get 20 boats out most weeks with 30 entered for the series, but where 10 years ago all the boats would have been relatively similar in type we now go size wise from Seascpae 18's to a Sigma 38 and speed wise from some old cruiser's rating about 0.84 to a cork 1720. For us we actually get some quite good racing against one of the J70's (I sail a SF3200 with asym kites) we never sail at the same speed as each other at any point over a race but we have had at least 2 races this year where there has been less than a boat length between us at the end of a one and a half hour race (yes in a drag race we would pretty much always beat them but on a course with possibly 12 mark rounding's we probably lose over one boat length to them at each mark).

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

So many different aspects of this overall problem correctly being identified here.

Obviously the lack of tempting new boats is a world-wide problem - if they existed someone would be importing for themselves, so it seems that the builders haven't got queues of people beating their doors down. (I've worked in yachtbuilding, and the business is never short of optimistic companies that will build if they even sniff a buyer, often to their detriment). Decent builders talk to past clients in the hope of repeat business, and the fact that they aren't building the boats that Flaming wants means that these owners don't want them.

One thought that I've had is that people in their 50s and upwards have seen the enormous leaps in speed over the last decade, provided by planing and foiling, and might just think that it's a step too far up their learning curves? I certainly don't mean that they disapprove, they'd love to have a go, but... Even if they did sort of fancy it, where would they go to try fast sailing? Could the owners of the big planing boats be persuaded to take these reluctant but potential owners of smaller quick boats out during training sessions and get them addicted? (I'm in my 50s and available).

I've got one idea that I'm still developing, but there's a theme. Maybe we've been allowing the ever more slick industries of building yachts, putting on racing events etc. to take a lot of the work of attracting new sailors away from us, and it's us that should be turning this trend around? British Marine (BMIF as was) occasionally ran 'try a boat weekends' which were OKish, but no-one's done a 'try a race' as far as I know. If we all aimed to double our crew pool by recruiting non racers (who may also be non sailors) wouldn't that have a knock-on effect over the years?

 

[olly_love]

As a Designer and been involved with the world of production boats for a while now.
the market physically cannot take "race boats" over cruisers if you look at the Solent for an example on a Saturday in summer.
you will see about 100 boats out racing and around 500 cruising,
when designing a modern cruising boat you have to think what people now want,
6,6 beds (min) and 6 of them (no saloon sleeping anymore)
no pipe cots ( who would spend £300k and want to sleep on a bit of foam)
full galley with proper fridge and big oven and cooker,
walk in shower,
massive headroom ( the amount of boat shows I have stood at with people complaining that 7ft is not enough)
big enclosed seating, this is a big point, high seat backs are brilliant for cruising but bad for racing,
with the wife kids and friends on board for a weekend away you do not want to feel like the boat will throw you off.
Hull shape has a massive factor, people want something that is nice and easy to sail with a big groove and nice motion, this isn’t fast, so big fat foils, massive ballast, wide forward sections to get the forepeak in and big stern sections for the aft bed.

Prices
The average modern race boat run is about 20 boats, so that’ £400k per boat so 8m the average benetau or bav run is 1000 boats min at 200k per boat 200m
So you can see why the race boat manufactures don’t exist anymore.
I think also the average yachtie just isn’t fit enough or has enough experience to handle something fully powered up. Even a 40.7 in a big blow has massive loads and needs careful handling round a racecourse otherwise big damage happens.
We are currently looking for a new boat and the only one we can see that fitted the bill was the ker33 but with a £180k price tag was just mad.
We will end up with something like a Ker 32 or Corby 33 in the end or will just design my own and use a donor boat to get the rig.

 

[flaming]

The average modern race boat run is about 20 boats, so that’ £400k per boat so 8m the average benetau or bav run is 1000 boats min at 200k per boat 200m
So you can see why the race boat manufactures don’t exist anymore.
I think also the average yachtie just isn’t fit enough or has enough experience to handle something fully powered up. Even a 40.7 in a big blow has massive loads and needs careful handling round a racecourse otherwise big damage happens.
We are currently looking for a new boat and the only one we can see that fitted the bill was the ker33 but with a £180k price tag was just mad.
We will end up with something like a Ker 32 or Corby 33 in the end or will just design my own and use a donor boat to get the rig.

The one boat I've got really excited about recently was the C&C 30. Modern look, fast, relatively simple, not absurd price, even had a head! Could have been a fantastic Solent OD I think, but got slaughtered under IRC to the point where the one boat that was here got shipped to the states to race in the OD fleet there.

But sadly it was also subject to the other two great failings of the industry, abysmal marketing (see shipping the demo boat to the states....) and the seeming unerring ability for two manufacturers to launch pretty similar OD boats at the same time, with the result that neither takes off. So the Farr280 has a handful of boats, but that's a really very full on race boat with features like needing 4 bilge pumps because the deck is full of holes and the forehatch is just a canvas cover, hydraulic mast jack to adjust rig tension whilst racing and no head. Which have put it well beyond what most Solent owners feel they could cope with. And unsurprisingly it's looking like a class that you'll need a pro to sail in.

 

[olly_love]

The one boat I've got really excited about recently was the C&C 30. Modern look, fast, relatively simple, not absurd price, even had a head! Could have been a fantastic Solent OD I think, but got slaughtered under IRC to the point where the one boat that was here got shipped to the states to race in the OD fleet there.

But sadly it was also subject to the other two great failings of the industry, abysmal marketing (see shipping the demo boat to the states....) and the seeming unerring ability for two manufacturers to launch pretty similar OD boats at the same time, with the result that neither takes off. So the Farr280 has a handful of boats, but that's a really very full on race boat with features like needing 4 bilge pumps because the deck is full of holes and the forehatch is just a canvas cover, hydraulic mast jack to adjust rig tension whilst racing and no head. Which have put it well beyond what most Solent owners feel they could cope with. And unsurprisingly it's looking like a class that you'll need a pro to sail in.

it suffered as well as it has a £120k plus pricetag, then add campaign costs and pro costs.

again you cant just get a few crew listers and go and race one otherwise people will get hurt/rigs will fall

 

[flaming]

So many different aspects of this overall problem correctly being identified here.

Obviously the lack of tempting new boats is a world-wide problem - if they existed someone would be importing for themselves, so it seems that the builders haven't got queues of people beating their doors down.

I disagree with that. Off the top of my head I can think of a number of boats that I'd love to sail that would be great Solent boats, other than for the fact that they'd never work under IRC so you'd need an OD fleet. And starting an OD fleet when the early adopters can't win under the local handicap system is practically impossible.

C&C30 (as above)
MC38
Farr 25
GP26
Bolt 37 (Ok, that's supposed to go ok under IRC, but still none have made it to the UK)
Fareast range (There are a couple of 280s getting regularly beaten in the HP30 class but the 31R hasn't made it and that looks really good)