The long slow death of the cruiser racer...?

[flaming]

it suffered as well as it has a £120k plus pricetag, then add campaign costs and pro costs.

again you cant just get a few crew listers and go and race one otherwise people will get hurt/rigs will fall

Price yes, but is it really any more difficult to sail than a J? And the loads would be way less than on a 109. That thing loads up to a scary degree.
Other than the split backstays, there's practically no difference.

The YW test wasn't (in contrast to the Farr280 test) talking the complexity up, they were talking the ease of sailing up.

 

[olly_love]

big difference will be if you flog the kite hardor a big whipeout will snap a rig alot easier than the 109 (yes i know they fall down alot)

main problem will be in big breeze where the boat will take off alot more,
the average yacht sailor isnt used to sailing at 15-18 knots CONSTANT( except in their bar room chat)
so closing speeds of 30 knots gets a little full on.


watch the J88s next weekend they are not used to the speed and closing speeds so lots of near misses

still an amazing bit of kit though and taken off in the US but not here?
its a shame the Fareast didnt take off here as we would have bought one tomorrow if there was signs of a class (starting price of 30k new with sails)

 

[flaming]

big difference will be if you flog the kite hardor a big whipeout will snap a rig alot easier than the 109 (yes i know they fall down alot)

main problem will be in big breeze where the boat will take off alot more,
the average yacht sailor isnt used to sailing at 15-18 knots CONSTANT( except in their bar room chat)
so closing speeds of 30 knots gets a little full on.


watch the J88s next weekend they are not used to the speed and closing speeds so lots of near misses

still an amazing bit of kit though and taken off in the US but not here?
its a shame the Fareast didnt take off here as we would have bought one tomorrow if there was signs of a class (starting price of 30k new with sails)

Ah yes I agree that the J88 sailors are still getting used to the speed. I'm sure if/when I end up driving something like that I'll have the same issues to start with. They're getting there though, and the next generation of sailors, most of whom will have sailed some sort of Asymmetric skiff, will be well ahead of the game there.

I think your last sentence is telling though. You would have bought one if there was a class. But no chance of buying one without a class because you'd be nowhere in any handicap fleet right? So you just end up with a whole lot of people just watching, nobody wanting to buy the first one and be left with a lemon if no more are sold.

Only Key Yachting have ever figured out how to break that circle with the J's. And it's taken them about 3 years with the J88s.

 

[markhomer]

Speed is all relative , you get used to it very quickly and dont really notice it , used to worry about sailing through our moorings in tornado hitting 30 knotts on tight reach , but your brain adjusts to it quickly after all its no quicker than going downhill on an old bycycle

 

[yoda]

In response to the original post, (I have read all the way through the thread!), I think the answer is in the name. I would define a cruiser / racer as a boat designed primarily for cruising but fitted with sufficient equipment to undertake a race. Undoubtedly any decent designer can produce a race orientated boat with a few 'cruising' fits that will easily out perform a cruiser/racer both over the water and on handicap. Put both in the same class and the cruiser/racer will generally come off worse. You should then consider that the majority of people buying yachts in this size range are looking for a compromise to meet what is probably a 80:20 cruising:racing mix (at best) and investing a significant amount of personal wealth in a boat that will have to keep the other half happy when not racing.

I agree that getting a one design off the ground is difficult but unless you target the majority (cruising) market you are limiting your sales. I look at successful one designs like the Albin Ballad, CO32, Sigma 33 and what you find is a performance cruising boat (for their time) that can happily be raced without the worry of handicap/rating. Of course to be successful a one design needs to be fairly timeless in order to lengthen the build run.

So what? Well, I race singlehanded in a fleet of cruiser racers. Most probably come from a background of cruiser racing in the 80s and 90s but some from a little later. Go back to the original point however and you will find all of the boats cruise far more than they race so need to be inclined that way. Of course Solent racing is different to the West Country but actually what makes our series successful is not the type of boats but the format used to encourage participation from a wide range of boats.

I think the main cause of the demise is actually the rating /handicap systems in use today. The once large gulf between IOR and PY ensured that racing boys went racing, everybody else did competitive cruising (as I like to think back on it). The slow merger of systems to what we have today in IRC and NHC encourages a thought that boats can move from one class to another and still be competitive, I just don't think this is realistic. One design is the only real compromise, maybe the Dehler 34 could be the boat?

Yoda

 

[rwoofer]

the amount of boat shows I have stood at with people complaining that 7ft is not enough)
.

I'm 6'6" and apart from deck saloon type boats that don't have a raised floor I always struggle with headroom - I just have to accept that i can't stand up in most boats.

Back on topic, I used to own an RM(and hanker after a Pogo) which I thought would fulfil the role well, but unfortunately they get hammered on rating. Adjusting rating systems to support cruiser racers must surely be a good step to get more boats racing.

 

[lw395]

Price yes, but is it really any more difficult to sail than a J? And the loads would be way less than on a 109. That thing loads up to a scary degree.
Other than the split backstays, there's practically no difference.

The YW test wasn't (in contrast to the Farr280 test) talking the complexity up, they were talking the ease of sailing up.

That looks like a big dinghy, it's a sportsboat with a lid and presumably bog and cooker.
The real problem is that yardstick systems simply do not work well with some boats planing and others not.
So you as you have a reasonable range of waterline length and 'conventional' yachts, the rating can work over a reasonable range of wind speeds.
As soon as some boats have a totally different boatspeed vs windspeed graph, it all fails.
You know who is going to win based on the forecast. Or the course!

You get this in dinghies, if you try to mix disparate boats. It's Ok for people like me sailing at low budget family-oriented local sailing clubs. Or for the Winter 'one off events'. But it's no good for serious racing.

Did we not go through all this in the 90s? People who wanted performance leadmines in small sizes bought 'Sportsboats' and raced under the SBR or OD.

The problem is, yachts are a lot of money. When you are trying to win on yardstick, last year's favourite design can devalue at such a rate that it becomes a very exclusive game.

Maybe if all the people with fat wallets chartered Sunsail boats, we'd see some good racing?
It's a bit ironic that Sunsail is the only organisation with the clout to organise a respectable (in numbers!) OD fleet.

 

[drakes drum]

What boats are still being made that are good to cruise and are fun to race?

That was my question. I couldn't think of any, at least none that are available at AWB pricing.

Both "good to cruise" and "fun to race" are subjective judgements. I cant even agree with my wife whether our boat fits either criteria. And thats the point.

Clearly you cannot find a boat that fits both criteria but I can. We differ.

I wonder what you think about the Swans? I've been watching the Swan worlds on TV and they seem to enjoy racing what are cruising boats. They even describe them as racer / cruisers.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Cruising now seems to not be about sailing.

I think you're right, but it's quite understandable. 30 or 40 years ago most harbours were relatively inhospitable places for yachts. You might get a quayside place with a climb up a slimy vertiginous ladder to civilisation but you were most likely to anchor and hope to find somewhere to leave the dinghy for a trip ashore. A cruise was therefore spent mostly at sea, with limited harbour stops to stock up or shelter, and boat design reflected this.

Nowadays there are marinas everywhere. Staying in these harbours is pleasant, easy and requires no use of ladders. Cruises now end to be long stays in marinas with occasional trips between them, in nice weather only, using the great big engine if the wind isn't in the right direction or if you just don't feel like it. Inevitable, cruising yacht design reflects this; nice comfortable caravans for gracious living in marinas and occasional sailing trips in good conditions. Result: just what flaming describes ... "cockpit tables blocking crew from crossing the cockpit, coachroof mainsheet tracks and woefully undersized deck equipment."

That's not to say that the modern boats are bad. They are not, just designed for a very different sort of sailing compared to older boats. The same, I gather, is true of racing boats which nowadays are intended mainly for very short dinghy style courses and not passage races.

tl;dr: both "cruising" and "racing" have changed so much over the past 20 or 30 years that it is simply no longer possible to design a boat which will do both.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The only way I can see round this is to completely start from scratch with the way that we decide who has won a race between a group of dissimilar boats.

I have just been watching a group of people playing an absurdly complicated board game called "Ticket to Ride". Not only are the rules a book about 20 pages long, the scoring system is so complicated that after they had finished (and it took about five minutes to work out that they had finished), it took over half an hour to work out the score and therefore the winner.

I just don't see the point. Any sort of strategic competition between people surely has to involve a series of decisions at each of which the play must decide what action will give, or is most likely to give, advantages. When the score can only be worked out at great length afterwards, how can any sensible decision be taken when playing? Well, that's what I asked. The (ex-)players agreed, and I think "Ticket to Ride" will be in its box for the foreseeable future.

By the way, the cruiser handicapping system defeats me. As I understand it, the better you sail, the harder it is for you to win. What's the point in that?

 

[awol]

By the way, the cruiser handicapping system defeats me. As I understand it, the better you sail, the harder it is for you to win. What's the point in that?

I thought this had been done to death! But my understanding is that the raison d'être is:

• Racing a cruising boat is first and foremost for fun and the more boats racing, the more fun
• That fun is diminished if the same boat wins every time and being DFL or there-abouts in every race is a disincentive to turn out
• All handicap systems have bandit boats and all handicap systems are unfair to someone in some conditions.
• Not everyone wants to (or can) participate in an arms race of hi-tech sails, faired foils, etc.
• An 18 h'cap golfer can play with a scratch golfer and win but there is no doubt about who is better and reducing that h'cap is one of the prime aims.
• If proving yourself "the best" matters then go sail OD

 

[JumbleDuck]

I thought this had been done to death! But my understanding is that the raison d'être is:

• Racing a cruising boat is first and foremost for fun and the more boats racing, the more fun
• That fun is diminished if the same boat wins every time and being DFL or there-abouts in every race is a disincentive to turn out
• All handicap systems have bandit boats and all handicap systems are unfair to someone in some conditions.
• Not everyone wants to (or can) participate in an arms race of hi-tech sails, faired foils, etc.
• An 18 h'cap golfer can play with a scratch golfer and win but there is no doubt about who is better and reducing that h'cap is one of the prime aims.
• If proving yourself "the best" matters then go sail OD

I get every bit of that, but the idea that if you and your crew work really hard, practice and start going faster you will be penalised to let someone who can't be bothered have a chance of winning just sounds perverse to me. In other words, I can see the point in handicapping the boats, but not in doing it for the crews.

 

[awol]

I get every bit of that, but the idea that if you and your crew work really hard, practice and start going faster you will be penalised to let someone who can't be bothered have a chance of winning just sounds perverse to me. In other words, I can see the point in handicapping the boats, but not in doing it for the crews.

"If you and your crew work really hard, practice and start going faster" then you will win and with a rolling h'cap system still have an incentive to improve. If and when you go further afield then you will stand a better chance. Winning the club Wednesday night series on straight h'caps with straight bullets against a motley collection of MABs and AWBs 'cos you have black sails and they don't won't make you better.
Starting the season with a newbie crew and seeing the handicap rise and then fall has a satisfaction of its own and I can't see it being a disincentive to participation. For regattas and the like standard handicaps make sense.

 

[JumbleDuck]

"If you and your crew work really hard, practice and start going faster" then you will win and with a rolling h'cap system still have an incentive to improve.

Well, you'll have an obligation to improve, because if you don't you'll be handicapped to the point where the boozers out for a laff will beat you.

Winning the club Wednesday night series on straight h'caps with straight bullets against a motley collection of MABs and AWBs 'cos you have black sails and they don't won't make you better.

You won't, though, if the boat handicapping is done well.

Starting the season with a newbie crew and seeing the handicap rise and then fall has a satisfaction of its own and I can't see it being a disincentive to participation.

I can completely agree with the first bit but from what I have heard from local club racers the second bit isn't the case. At least one local club has chosen not to adopt the new system because crews were solidly against it.

 

[drakes drum]

AWOL has it right. You kid yourself if you think that any design based handicap like IRC can be fair to everyone. Even assuming that the calculations took into account every possible design factor ( they dont and cant), they dont take much notice of kit so you can buy a result that way, and they dont allow for the boat pot hunting with a collection of paid for rock star sailors, Solent style. So they result in one or a few boats winning all the time, some losing all the time, and as Flaming has instanced above, a sailor selling a losing boat to buy a winning one. Indeed much of the preceeding post were about how you might buy a win by chosing the right design.

Run correctly, NHC quickly brings all the competing boats to a very similar level at which point the boat that tries hardest, improves most, then wins. You cant win a series with money but only with effort.

And all the above ignores the tide and weather issue which ensures that a handicap that works for a small boat in a neap tide and light winds wont work for the same boat in a spring tide and heavy winds.

If you are intent on competition between crews then the purest form has to be one design but even then you need a standard fleet with boats allocated to crews by lottery. Out of 10 Impalas for example, one or two will be just that bit faster than the rest.

 

[Bobc]

Another comment from me is one of "elitism" by the "racing set".

An example of this is a mate who has a VDS34 which I race with him on some club events. He wanted to do some more racing this year and fancied joining-in with some JOG events. However he doesn't have an IRC rating, so they wouldn't let him join in. He even said that he was happy to retire or be DSQ'd at the end of the race, as he wasn't bothered about the result (just wanted to do some racing). But no, they weren't interested. So the only way he can take part is to get the boat IRC rated, and as it's a one-off rather than a production yacht, that comes with hassle and expense. So he hasn't bothered.

 

[savageseadog]

Another comment from me is one of "elitism" by the "racing set".

An example of this is a mate who has a VDS34 which I race with him on some club events. He wanted to do some more racing this year and fancied joining-in with some JOG events. However he doesn't have an IRC rating, so they wouldn't let him join in. He even said that he was happy to retire or be DSQ'd at the end of the race, as he wasn't bothered about the result (just wanted to do some racing). But no, they weren't interested. So the only way he can take part is to get the boat IRC rated, and as it's a one-off rather than a production yacht, that comes with hassle and expense. So he hasn't bothered.

I wouldn't be happy to have ineligible boats racing in my fleet. Hassle and expense? Comes with the territory.

 

[flaming]

Another comment from me is one of "elitism" by the "racing set".

An example of this is a mate who has a VDS34 which I race with him on some club events. He wanted to do some more racing this year and fancied joining-in with some JOG events. However he doesn't have an IRC rating, so they wouldn't let him join in. He even said that he was happy to retire or be DSQ'd at the end of the race, as he wasn't bothered about the result (just wanted to do some racing). But no, they weren't interested. So the only way he can take part is to get the boat IRC rated, and as it's a one-off rather than a production yacht, that comes with hassle and expense. So he hasn't bothered.

That's just crazy. JOG is a series that is raced under the IRC rules. If you don't want to rate under IRC, then there are other series that are scored under NHC.

 

[salignac]

AWOL has it right. You kid yourself if you think that any design based handicap like IRC can be fair to everyone. Even assuming that the calculations took into account every possible design factor ( they dont and cant), they dont take much notice of kit so you can buy a result that way, and they dont allow for the boat pot hunting with a collection of paid for rock star sailors, Solent style.

I am afraid that OD is not always the answer either, depending on the designs rules. There is a case, well a few actually, in an International One Design where someone with more money than sense decided he wanted to win the European Championships. Hired coach's, professional crew, coach in a Rib to tell him what the winds were doing near the windward mark etc etc etc. His speech when winning was he wanted to thank a long list of coaches, professional crew's etc. In effect he purchased a European Championship!!! The class has since banned he use of a Rib or similar on the water radioing the yachts, but it happened. The same class is now full of professional crews with the cry now at Championship level for the flotilla to be split in two, one with professionals on board and the purely amateurs. Needless to say that class is suffering a decline, I wonder why.







If you are intent on competition between crews then the purest form has to be one design but even then you need a standard fleet with boats allocated to crews by lottery. Out of 10 Impalas for example, one or two will be just that bit faster than the rest.

 

[lw395]

"
I am afraid that OD is not always the answer either, depending on the designs rules. There is a case, well a few actually, in an International One Design where someone with more money than sense decided he wanted to win the European Championships. Hired coach's, professional crew, coach in a Rib to tell him what the winds were doing near the windward mark etc etc etc. His speech when winning was he wanted to thank a long list of coaches, professional crew's etc. In effect he purchased a European Championship!!! The class has since banned he use of a Rib or similar on the water radioing the yachts, but it happened. The same class is now full of professional crews with the cry now at Championship level for the flotilla to be split in two, one with professionals on board and the purely amateurs. Needless to say that class is suffering a decline, I wonder why.
"

There is a place for classes where people pay out lots of money to hired crew, coaches etc, there is a place for classes which restrict themselves to 'owner-driver'.
Personally in dinghy-land, I've always been happy to race against pro's but I'm more interested in an interesting race and learning something than winning anything.

Where do you draw the line at how much money and effort someone should draw the line at, when it comes to improving their performance.
I've had a bit of coaching via a dinghy class association, it was a far more cost-effective improvement than buying new sails.

I think it comes down to competing against comparable people, with comparable attitude and budget,who you have respect for?