The long slow death of the cruiser racer...?

savageseadog said:
I wouldn't be happy to have ineligible boats racing in my fleet..
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I know what you mean. We have one guy, a nice chap ( well he might be reading this! :D ) who has a Bav match of about 42ft and with a handicap on IRC of 1.03 . He wants to race in our NHC fleet but at the other end of the spectrum from him we have boats at 0.816. In a decent breeze the Bav will exceed 10kn whereas the slow boat might manage 5.5kn. On average their speeds differ by 26%. And we have tides varying up to maybe 3kn. No way that a handicap of any sort will cope with that range.

To illustrate we have had occasional appearances in the fleet from a Laser dayboat. In the right conditions he sails the rest of the fleet into the ground, if you can do that! It would be the same issue if we had any racing multihulls.

My degree was maths based. I like playing with numbers. I've spent hours messing about with handicaps but I have totally failed to see how any system can cope with all the boat variations there are before you even try to take tide into consideration.

In the final analysis you just have to accept that club racing is for fun, and laugh at the saddo who decides he's going to buy the club regatta trophy
 
Open question (as I don't know enough about the system to state it as fact but...

Doesn't ORC do exactly that?

I * think * that they calculate a handicap or time for the course they set, effectively a "target time" for each boat. For example a reaching "point to point" course will have different handicap or time or whatever than a windward leeward course.

Maybe someone knowledgeable (like Flaming?) can confirm..... or tell me what I'm saying is a load of rubbish!?
 
I've done ocassional winter 'all-in' handicap races where because of tide and disparate boats, the results have been an utter farce. But it was still fun for the bigger boats to race among themselves, and the dinghies to race among themselves, even if one group lapped the other. It got us out on the water out of season, and it was something to talk about in the bar afterwards.
Would I do it again? Absolutely. It's great fun and nobody cares who wins.
Would I spend real money buying any boat for this kind of comedy/ Nope!

And that is the problem, we are asking people to spend a truckload of cash to take part.

Compared with dinghy PY, IRC works quite well for narrow bands of boats.
IMHO, dinghy PY works well for similar dinghies, ie. Laser vs Supernova vs any una rig singlehander of similar speed.
505 vs 470 vs any other single trapeze conventional kite 2 man boat etc etc.
But it falls apart when rating spinnaker boats against non, or light against heavy etc.
Likewise, any yardstick system will struggle to rate a Sigma 33 against a planing sportsboat.
 
Bobc said:
Another comment from me is one of "elitism" by the "racing set".

An example of this is a mate who has a VDS34 which I race with him on some club events. He wanted to do some more racing this year and fancied joining-in with some JOG events. However he doesn't have an IRC rating, so they wouldn't let him join in. He even said that he was happy to retire or be DSQ'd at the end of the race, as he wasn't bothered about the result (just wanted to do some racing). But no, they weren't interested. So the only way he can take part is to get the boat IRC rated, and as it's a one-off rather than a production yacht, that comes with hassle and expense. So he hasn't bothered.
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Savageseadog and Flaming have it right. Additionally competitors sign up to ISAF Cat 4 requirements inshore and Cat 3 offshore plus JOG prescriptions - safety related in the main. JOG has a great reputation for welcoming new boats and crews and most would agree the tag 'elitist' is misplaced.
 
Been off the forum for a few days, so playing catch up here and not read the whole thread in detail. In Lymington, we are still getting 50 boats on Sunday mornings, up to 70 during warmer months. However, the IRC fleet is dwindling as is the localised version of NHC. The classes are on the increase are the cheap and cheerful J80s and Folkboats.

One couple (both in professional jobs) who were very successful in a First 35 have dropped down to a J80. Its not just a cheaper option in terms of capital and running costs, but the biggest factor for them is the less hassle. They needed 8 people every week on the 35, but only need to find two others now. Also, they are having a lot more fun in a One design fleet, where every second counts in a 1.5-2hour race.

So back to Flaming's original point, I think the reason that the manufacturers aren't making the boats is the lack of customer demand - market forces apply.
 
ds797 said:
Open question (as I don't know enough about the system to state it as fact but...

Doesn't ORC do exactly that?

I * think * that they calculate a handicap or time for the course they set, effectively a "target time" for each boat. For example a reaching "point to point" course will have different handicap or time or whatever than a windward leeward course.

Maybe someone knowledgeable (like Flaming?) can confirm..... or tell me what I'm saying is a load of rubbish!?
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Up to a point. Like IRC they use a VPP to calculate the performance potential of a boat and they provide different handicaps for different course but not for different tides and weather. I dont know the details of their VPP but I doubt for practical reasons that it can eliminate all boat differences. For example, the state of the sails or even their design. Have a look at http://www.orc.org/index.asp?id=23
 
Nothing can eliminate the effect of wind speed and tides on actual sailing performance. If you have any tide at all you might as well throw ratings in the bin, the only determining factor will be boat speed.
 
TallBuoy said:
And marking the pole track on the mast is hardly a new idea!
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No, marking the pole certainly isn't revolutionary!

I guess my point is that the lack of "grand prix" racing of the Half ton, One ton type of years past has meant all those owners who enjoy the design challenge just as much as the sailing (and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that btw) are playing in the IRC sandpit. And that has been very much to the detriment of the type of owner who bought a cruiser racer with the intention of using it in both roles. Which is exactly what IRC was intended for.

One thing I've learned over the time I've been racing in C/Rs in the solent is that there are very, very few owners who keep racing when they never get on the podium. If programs such as Yes (and I could name a half dozen others) are making it basically impossible for a reasonably priced cruiser racer from a production yard to feature, then we are going to have a serious problem with fleets. As boats like the JPK are really very expensive compared to the old Firsts or Elans etc.
 
Is any of this new?
About 30 years ago I was polishing the bottom of a dry-sailed cruiser racer with all the string calibrated.
I think the boat cost over twice the value of my terraced house at the time.

What's changed seems to be a decrease in the number of seriously wealthy people able and willing to pay the bills?

And maybe a rise in the 'we won't take part if we can't win' attitude?
 
flaming said:
No, marking the pole certainly isn't revolutionary!

I guess my point is that the lack of "grand prix" racing of the Half ton, One ton type of years past has meant all those owners who enjoy the design challenge just as much as the sailing (and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that btw) are playing in the IRC sandpit. And that has been very much to the detriment of the type of owner who bought a cruiser racer with the intention of using it in both roles. Which is exactly what IRC was intended for.

One thing I've learned over the time I've been racing in C/Rs in the solent is that there are very, very few owners who keep racing when they never get on the podium. If programs such as Yes (and I could name a half dozen others) are making it basically impossible for a reasonably priced cruiser racer from a production yard to feature, then we are going to have a serious problem with fleets. As boats like the JPK are really very expensive compared to the old Firsts or Elans etc.
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Knowing little of JPK and even less about fast sailing I might add. I looked them up. good YW info here:

http://www.yachtingworld.com/yachts...ul-racing-keelboat-says-matthew-sheahan-64916

Interesting quote:

"Blathering on about how a boat is as much at home family cruising as it is racing round the cans is no longer a compelling argument."

The given price for this 35 footer does not seem excessive:

Price ex works ex tax €132,943 (£99,366)

Tho the figure in parenthesis is not what it was and the, on the water, cost will no doubt be 30% more.
 
doug748 said:
Knowing little of JPK and even less about fast sailing I might add. I looked them up. good YW info here:

http://www.yachtingworld.com/yachts...ul-racing-keelboat-says-matthew-sheahan-64916

Interesting quote:

"Blathering on about how a boat is as much at home family cruising as it is racing round the cans is no longer a compelling argument."

The given price for this 35 footer does not seem excessive:

Price ex works ex tax €132,943 (£99,366)

Tho the figure in parenthesis is not what it was and the, on the water, cost will no doubt be 30% more.
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Some years ago i looked at the new price of an X332, the JPK does not seem dear by comparison.
 
lw395 said:
Is any of this new?
About 30 years ago I was polishing the bottom of a dry-sailed cruiser racer with all the string calibrated.
I think the boat cost over twice the value of my terraced house at the time.

What's changed seems to be a decrease in the number of seriously wealthy people able and willing to pay the bills?

And maybe a rise in the 'we won't take part if we can't win' attitude?
Click to expand...

I guess the thing that narks is that IRC have said time and time again that they want to protect the C/Rs from race boats. Resulting in penalties for removing doors etc, but meanwhile what has actually happened is that all the big yards have stopped making C/Rs, and the race boats we get are far heavier than is necessary for their purpose because that's what the rule has encouraged to try and protect the cruiser racers.

So what IRC set out to achieve has in the end been beaten by the designers, and what we have now is a real polarisation of design between cruising boats and racing boats. Even the best new fast cruisers fom yards that are ignoring the rulebook and designing what their customers want look nothing like what is needed to do well on the club racing circuit under IRC. The Pogos, new Elans etc. The type of boat that excels on a reach but is average at best upwind. Only X and Arcona are actually making C/Rs that someone who'd been in hibernation for 10 years would recognise as such, and only Arcona anything in the mid 30s size bracket, The XP33 is not a boat that would appeal to someone wanting to take it on a family cruise as well as race it.

That is not evidence that the IRC policy of encouraging C/Rs has worked, quite the reverse...

I'm just wondering if it's time for IRC to admit that the era of the C/R is over and to end the policy of trying to encourage them, as it clearly isn't working. Let the designers lose creating fun race boats that don't cost a fortune but stand a chance on handicap. Maybe even accept that in 2016 a race boat should plane...
 
doug748 said:
Price ex works ex tax €132,943 (£99,366)

Tho the figure in parenthesis is not what it was and the, on the water, cost will no doubt be 30% more.
Click to expand...

Our owner priced up a 1010 (the little sister) a while back. I dunno what that price is based on, but it is absolutely nothing like the necessary cost to put a boat on the start line, even excluding sails. I would guess that the on the water price including sails will be well north of £200k. Which would be backed up by 2 1080s currently for sail "ready to race" at over £190k.
 
flaming said:
Me and my big mouth... If circumstances were different...
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To be fair, there is no simple answer - it can't be all down to the IRC office to sort it. Yes they could set the rules differently, if that is deemed appropriate, but they can only deal with the boats and people who make up their market. They are as keen as anybody, probably moreso, to expand that market because it pays their way as a business (albeit a subsidiary of RORC.)

There are many other market forces, primarily around what is affordable to the participants.

Maybe the manufacturers need to take a lead, by getting into bed with finance houses, and creating some form of charter or shared ownership arrangements. Companies already exist for cruising yachts, such as Flexisail or Pure Latitude, but their pockets are far to shallow to take a punt on a quantity of boats to be raced.

The big manufacturers such as Benetteau have not only the motivation to get more products out on the water, but also greater access to financial backing (one assumes !!).

Believing all the above to be feasible, I'm now off to write to a big fat man in a red suit who comes down the chimney once a year. Doesn't he?
 
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