Steelboats

[Baggywrinkle]

Let's assume that your steel boat is worth nothing. Depreciation will have cost you less than £1000 pa. How does that compare with the depreciation on your IP?

Depreciation and how much it matters is a simple question of the budget and thinking of the individual involved. Affordability can only be assessed on an individual level, for some, depreciation of £5K is too much ... for others, depreciation of £500K is fine. Value for money is a rational calculation but it doesn't mean anything until you are comparing two very similar offers, then it may become relevant ... depreciation of an IP against a HR for example would be a rational comparison, IP depreciation against a 5K fixer-upper is irrelevant, the prospective IP owner wouldn't even consider a 5K fixer-upper as an alternative and someone in the market for a 5K steel boat wouldn't consider an IP either.

A magazine article comparing the most expensive production boat against the cheapest might make a very interesting article, but it wouldn't really be of any practical use.

 

[rotrax]

Let's assume that your steel boat is worth nothing. Depreciation will have cost you less than £1000 pa. How does that compare with the depreciation on your IP?

As I bought a "Distressed" Island Packet at the right price the depreciation over the three years we have owned her is minimal.

We bugeted 10K for rectification works. Apart from a replacing switch and a lot of cleaning and lubeing, flushing and refilling all was well, and at a cost of less than 1K.

So, well pleased.

The steel Hartley was similarly distressted. It was discustingly filthy inside-to the extent we would not eat or even make a cup of coffee inside for two weeks, and after a lot of hard work.

It was, and still is, a cheap boat. It now looks, inside and out, better than it ever has in our ownership. We have been complimented on its improvement. Everything is in full working order except the holding tank macerator pump, an easy but unpleasant job to change.

But it is worth very little, as are most steel yachts in NZ.

Thats how supply and demand works.

Too many steel yachts, not enough new owners.

I would expect to achieve a similar price to what I paid for our IP, but It has been improved substantially for our long term cruising use.

The only reason I mentioned retained value of steel boats is that a normal person making repair/renovation to such a vessel normally requires some calculation of cost against boat value after the works are carried out.

I suspect our steel Hartley has done all its depreciating by now, and, if kept in good nick, is stable in retained value.

Not so the IP, which is on a downward spiral.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Almost all of the progress that we see today is due to our ever expanding knowledge. Developments in materials and construction methods, together with the application of ever more powerful computers have enabled us to build things that we simply weren’t able to build 30 years ago.

What should we do with all this knowledge? Ignore it, refuse to apply it? I think it should be applied to building better, faster, lighter, more comfortable, cost effective and efficient boats.

In the days of wooden boat building, steel was perhaps a luxury alternative … instead of rot and leaks we got rust … coatings were inadequate and both were maintenance heavy and far from ideal. If the internet had been available, people who lived with that choice would have created threads similar to this one – wood vs steel – I can just imagine the conflict. Major discussion over which design of manual bilge pump was best as it was probably the most important piece of equipment aboard a wooden yacht, and the steel aficionados laughing at the need for a bilge pump at all. So it is today with the fiberglass/steel debate. Similar debates also ran over film vs digital and are starting now with electric motorbikes vs petrol – we all know how they end.

There is no one answer – but there is a visible and measureable trend. Evolution of design, materials, and build methods mean that fiberglass circumnavigators outnumber steel ones by at least an order of magnitude … I don’t think I would be wrong to say that for every one steel yacht, there are at least 10 fiberglass ones out there doing the same thing – it’s called progress – perhaps in 30 years’ time there will be sailing yachts built using a 3D printing process, flying on computer controlled and stabilised hydrofoils, with electrical propulsion systems and super-efficient batteries and solar panels. Then modern sailors will be wondering why on earth the last generation still want to float around in displacement boats which take an age to get anywhere. Who knows?

Should we embrace the opportunities these advances provide, or stick with what we know? – it doesn’t really matter, progress will happen anyway. I can understand how Brent has ended up like he has, I’ve never seen a GZ curve for any of his boats and can’t find one anywhere, similarly I also can’t find a polar diagram but it would seem that a number of people have built to his designs and are sailing around in them – people also crossed oceans in the 19th century on what they thought were adequate sea-worthy boats. If Brent were to be less abrasive and less dismissive of anything that wasn’t built in a back-yard from second-hand boiler plate then I’m sure he wouldn’t suffer all the online conflict he attracts.

Steel boatbuilding has its place because there are still people with a “steel is best” mindset, it isn’t dead quite yet – perhaps aluminium will replace it, but whatever happens, it’s niche and in decline.

Perhaps that’s what is eating Brent, knowing that his knowledge and experience is becoming less and less relevant, his origami method of building steel boats never became mainstream and like the craftsmen who build and restore wooden boats today, it’s a dying art that no marketing campaign could possibly revive in the face of more modern alternatives.

Brent, if you read this, chill-out – by all means continue to share your knowledge on how to prevent steel rotting in saltwater and how to build strong boats on the cheap in your back yard, but you have to accept that the boating industry has moved on – your products and methods are niche and always will be – there is not going to be a wave of origami boats plying the oceans but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for them. Perhaps stuck on a reef somewhere, surviving a good pounding against the rocks and looking forward to another 2 years on the hard having their coatings removed and re-applied by determined DIY sailors bartering their way back to sea – the owners of fiberglass equivalents may be facing a total-loss, an insurance claim and a new boat for next season.

One thing is certain, there is no verifiable supporting evidence to prove that you are more or less likely to die simply because of a hull material preferences - steel or fiberglass. Chocolate might warrant a Darwin award though .....

http://www.bitrebels.com/design/take-a-ride-in-a-chocolate-boat/

... there's always one .... or perhaps two.

Live and let live. :encouragement:

 

[myquest]

BS has given excellent advice to owners and potential owners of steel boats, but his one man crusade to convert mankind to his way of it is doomed.

IMHO, of course...................

Without the 9 to 5 civilisation that he so despises it is most certainly doomed!

 

[Brent Swain]

There’s nothing funny about encouraging people to make dangerous equipment.

I’m all for saving money and DIY lots of things on my own boat. I have designed and had welded up lots of bits of stainless work for various modifications and improvements to our own boat. (I don’t weld them myself because I know that my amateur welding isn’t very neat and may not be strong either)

Lemme see John.
You say equipment which has gone 40 years , including circumnavigations, with no failures whatsoever, is "dangerous" ,yet that which has had the steady stream of problems complained about on these forums , in far less use ,is "safe?"
Friends spending a winter cruising from BC to Tahiti and back, said they never met anyone on that trip, with anchor winch which had not given them major problems. Corrosion was a big one, no surprise, with their mixing of bronze ,aluminium, mild steel and stainless. Mine is all stainless, no mixing , and all parts visible and easily checked any time. Another was dangerous oil leaks on deck. Mine uses no oil.
Mine has zero chance of a rode jamming in a hawse pipe, as I drag onto a lee shore. You say that makes it more "dangerous".
It also means no dead crabs, etc rotting below decks , and no hawse pipe leaks ,ever.
Losing a winch due to such bad design, when trying to get of a lee shore, is a very "dangerous "situation.
Being hand operated, drastically reduces the odds of losing a finger in it.
A wind vane which doesn't break is far safer than having to hand steer for days, when a flimsy commercially made one breaks.
Anyone can go to a marine store, and see "Professionally "tig welded fittings ,involving a tig welds as thin as beer can, welded one side only, holding 5mm plate together .

But..but..they sure are pretty , which is all that counts, to sales!

One client hired a couple of pulp mill welders ( professionals) to weld up the 40 footer I put together for him. As they were the pros ,you couldn't tell them anything. They warped hell out of his decks, something I could have told a welding student how to avoid.
Most of my boats are welded up by their owners, most first time welders. None has ever had a weld fail, in over 40 years of building .
One kid I taught how to do steel fabricating, went onto get his welding ticket, then welding for a living. He summed things up well, when he said" When it comes to exaggerating how important ,and critical they are, most welders are absolutely full of crap !"

Or are you referring to my "Dangerous " solid crotch high lifelines, compared to commercially made, plastic coated , extruded tinfoil, knee high ones?

Or my aluminium ,air tight hatches, compared to "stylish" leaky teakys?

Or are you referring to hulls which can survive T boning by a freighter, or weeks of pounding in big surf on a lee shore, can cruise over 350, 000 miles of open ocean, over decades, with no serious structural problems of any kind, compared to those "Safer "ones, which break up almost instantly, in similar conditions?
LOL !
John ,you are truly hilarious.

 

[Brent Swain]

Mainsheet double block ,made of scrap aluminium.

 

[Brent Swain]

Single block , from scrap aluminium. I just broke a line rated at 2500 lbs breaking strength with this block. No sign of any distortion whatsoever. The ones costing $40 each are rated at 900 lbs . The line is the biggest I could break with a double purchase of my Arco 40 winches. I plan to try it with a heavier line ,and the momentum of my boat. I believe breaking half inch dacron with no damage to the block, would be no problem.

"Dangerous " you say , compared to one rated at 900 lbs?
A coast guard friend ,with one of my boats, took one look at the price tag on commercially made ones , and the load rating ,then made up all he needed, in an hour or two.
I once timed myself ,making up a single purchase block ,using only hand tools . Took me 20 minutes, and $2 worth of materials. Less time than going to buy one, not counting earning the extra $38!

 

[Brent Swain]

Without the 9 to 5 civilisation that he so despises it is most certainly doomed!

View attachment 77695

You do it this way, if that is what you prefer .
My posts are strictly for those who prefer dong it the other way, not for environmentally hostile masochists.

 

[Brent Swain]

As I bought a "Distressed" Island Packet at the right price the depreciation over the three years we have owned her is minimal.

We bugeted 10K for rectification works. Apart from a replacing switch and a lot of cleaning and lubeing, flushing and refilling all was well, and at a cost of less than 1K.

So, well pleased.

The steel Hartley was similarly distressted. It was discustingly filthy inside-to the extent we would not eat or even make a cup of coffee inside for two weeks, and after a lot of hard work.

It was, and still is, a cheap boat. It now looks, inside and out, better than it ever has in our ownership. We have been complimented on its improvement. Everything is in full working order except the holding tank macerator pump, an easy but unpleasant job to change.

But it is worth very little, as are most steel yachts in NZ.

Thats how supply and demand works.

Too many steel yachts, not enough new owners.

I would expect to achieve a similar price to what I paid for our IP, but It has been improved substantially for our long term cruising use.

The only reason I mentioned retained value of steel boats is that a normal person making repair/renovation to such a vessel normally requires some calculation of cost against boat value after the works are carried out.

I suspect our steel Hartley has done all its depreciating by now, and, if kept in good nick, is stable in retained value.

Not so the IP, which is on a downward spiral.

Most of my 36 footers, if well built and well kept sell for aound $45 K here ,very quickly.
You are right .I never found most of the Kiwis to be all that bright, when it comes to choice of hull material .Only some of them.

With the work you have done ,you will find your maintenance has dropped drastically .

 

[myquest]

View attachment 77695

You do it this way, if that is what you prefer .
My posts are strictly for those who prefer dong it the other way, not for environmentally hostile masochists.

I'm not aware that anyone on here, other than yourself, is hostile to the way they go about their lives. Have you ever considered you may have wandered up the wrong creek? The attachment is invalid so I can't comment on it.

 

[rotrax]

Most of my 36 footers, if well built and well kept sell for aound $45 K here ,very quickly.
You are right .I never found most of the Kiwis to be all that bright, when it comes to choice of hull material .Only some of them.

With the work you have done ,you will find your maintenance has dropped drastically .

Well Brent, in your opinion many Kiwi's are not too bright in the choice of hull material.

You are of course entitled to an opinion. I am sure you would not voice it in the bar of the Evans Bay Yacht and Motorboat club on a busy Friday night.....................................................

Not if you wanted to get out in one piece.

IIRC, New Zealand is the largest producer of Aluminium trailer boats. Their coast is very inhospitable, beach launching is often the norm in rural areas.

Aluminium is used because it is less weight to tow, launch and recover. Steel would be far too heavy.

They build to suit their requirements. Finland-the land of lakes-and NZ are fighting it out to be the country of most boat ownership per capita of population.

Give them credit for developing vessels that suit their specific needs.

Your brief visit there years ago in no way reflects the high tech world renowned marine industry-renowned by those who actually BUY boats and equipment from those who make them.

Unlike you.

If Brent Swain did nor design or make it, its NBG*.


* NBG= No Bloody Good!

 

[Brent Swain]

Once owned an aluminium parkercaft Kiwi build dingy . Great dinghy ,Great material for dinghies, until corrosion kills them.
My last one corroded thru , then was stolen by scrap thieves, a big liability for aluminium dinghies.
Plastic boats are being abandoned and scrapped in great numbers here . No one wants them.Their resale price is tiny, compared to their original price.
I often expressed my opinions openly ,in New Zealand. Only raised grumbles, all they had the huevos to do. Did my sparring there in the boxing ring.

You say a design which has made good passages over 40 years with no serious structural problems of any kind ,on which the hull costs less than 1/10 that of similar boats,is NBG? Looks like you are self delusional .
The problems you had with your steel boat would not have happened with one of mine.
Schadenfreude!

 

[Brent Swain]

I'm not aware that anyone on here, other than yourself, is hostile to the way they go about their lives. Have you ever considered you may have wandered up the wrong creek? The attachment is invalid so I can't comment on it.

A lifestyle which would take a couple more planets to sustain, is environmentally hostile, period!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

May I suggest we just leave this thread here, rusting quietly in a backwater like the sad specimen below.



PS: Probably just as well this one is abandoned, why anyone would choose to attach the backstays to the top rail of the pushpit is beyond me .....

 

[rotrax]

Once owned an aluminium parkercaft Kiwi build dingy . Great dinghy ,Great material for dinghies, until corrosion kills them.
My last one corroded thru , then was stolen by scrap thieves, a big liability for aluminium dinghies.
Plastic boats are being abandoned and scrapped in great numbers here . No one wants them.Their resale price is tiny, compared to their original price.
I often expressed my opinions openly ,in New Zealand. Only raised grumbles, all they had the huevos to do. Did my sparring there in the boxing ring.

You say a design which has made good passages over 40 years with no serious structural problems of any kind ,on which the hull costs less than 1/10 that of similar boats,is NBG? Looks like you are self delusional .
The problems you had with your steel boat would not have happened with one of mine.
Schadenfreude!

Yawn......................................

 

[Brent Swain]

May I suggest we just leave this thread here, rusting quietly in a backwater like the sad specimen below.

View attachment 77742

PS: Probably just as well this one is abandoned, why anyone would choose to attach the backstays to the top rail of the pushpit is beyond me .....

Looks like a plastic boat to me, a folkboat.
Attaching stays to a pushpit is incredibly dense, as dense as bolting them to plywood bulkheads ( which rot from deck leaks from chain plates) as they do on many stock plastic boats around here.
I weld them to the rails. The right triangular shape can make the bottom ,the weld, 3 times as long as simply a rounded chain plate, tripling the strength of the weld .

You may as well post a warning on the site
"No passing on of steel boat info on this site allowed, by anyone with extensive steel boat experience, only plastic boat dis info, by those with minimal steel boat experience."

 

[Brent Swain]

View attachment 77695

You do it this way, if that is what you prefer .
My posts are strictly for those who prefer dong it the other way, not for environmentally hostile masochists.

The attachment worked ,initially , before it was deleted by someone, not me.
It is a picture of a guy in a peaceful anchorage, in a business suit, with a big scowl on his face, and a sign on the boat's transom, saying;
"I'd rather be at the office!"
Is that you?

 

[dom]

The attachment worked ,initially , before it was deleted by someone, not me.
It is a picture of a guy in a peaceful anchorage, in a business suit, with a big scowl on his face, and a sign on the boat's transom, saying;
"I'd rather be at the office!"
Is that you?

you do realise that you’re now arguing with yourself?

 

[NotBirdseye]

Okay so this thread went down hill basically from the start could someone summarize any key sites to view with regards to steel vs aluminum vs wood vs plastic? I'd like to do a little bit of research.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Okay so this thread went down hill basically from the start could someone summarize any key sites to view with regards to steel vs aluminum vs wood vs plastic? I'd like to do a little bit of research.

In Bruce Roberts book on steel boat building there is a rough analysis of vaious boat building materials rating various factors to come up with a total