Steelboats

[Baggywrinkle]

This thread is worse than an anchor thread, or the MAB/AWB debate ... steel boats obviously have their place on the sailing spectrum and are for some people exactly what they want, fine, but why steel evangelists (Brent ... that's you!!) seem to think that they are inherrently superior to all other choices is beyond me.

I personally like plastic, a few hours with a jetwash, some oxalic acid followed by wax and that's it for the season. A brush with a harbour wall, an anchor or outboard dropped on deck, an errant spinnaker pole being ploughed into the foredeck and dragged accross the gelcoat, or the results of being rammed by another boats bow roller/anchor combination gouges lumps out of any gelcoat or coating, but plastic can be left 'till the end of the season and a few hours of work will see the damage disappear. This type of damage is far more common in my cruising ground than hitting rocks or containers - I don't need a steel boat, and I certainly don't need that sinking feeling when I come to the boat at the beginning of the season to find unwanted rust streaks needing my attention. I don't want to be stripping stuff back to white metal, applying cold galvanizing zinc primer, letting coatings harden for a week or so, before putting another colour coat on. Life is too short and I have other hobbies - I like my job and my work-life balance, my boat sits in a marina all year long, unattended most of the time, going nowhere, in the summer it is used heavily by myself and extended family as a combination second home and swim platform, which is very typical for the vast majority of boats. It occasionally picks up damage from other boats while I'm not there - but it is not a constant worry to me.

I spent one season moored next to a steel boat and was horrified when I got to the marina and found rust stains all over my deck caused by rain and filings spread from the steel boat onto mine. The owner had been grinding or cutting at some point and the rusty filings were all over both boats. I cleaned mine up with oxalic acid and asked for a new berth - took a couple of seasons for all the orange streaks to truly disappear. Steel? For me? I'd consider it if I ever became a live-aboard but for my current usage, no way.

 

[capnsensible]

I reckon to dispell all old bolox swain posts it would be helpful to take advice from someone who has sailed lots of grp yachts across oceans.

My desk is open for business.

Smiley.

 

[Wansworth]

There was a period pre Europe where people bought hulls and decksof grp and fitted them out the same with steel which offered a cheapish basic structure which left the owner to complete to desired finish or depth of pocket.There is no doubt that you could get a seagoing boat afloat ad sailing using secondhand materials and being good at mechanics ,woodwork and wielding.As with most amateur stuff you need a minimum of two attempts at the project,there are so many mistakes to make that after finishing the boat you have a great plan for the perfect build!Steel is or was cheap but getting a good finish and using good quality equipment in fact cost quite a lot and probably only saves you your Labour costs in the end.If your not looking to resell and like your own handy work and enjoy a minimum of 5 years working partime the steel boating could be for you!

 

[Brent Swain]

I’ve had the dubious pleasure of sailing several steel boats. I’m not hiding anything.

Then post the pictures of them, and answer the question. How much wood was bolted to the outside of them? How many coats of epoxy did they have on them ,inside and out? How well sand blasted was the steel under the epoxy ?

 

[Brent Swain]

There was a period pre Europe where people bought hulls and decksof grp and fitted them out the same with steel which offered a cheapish basic structure which left the owner to complete to desired finish or depth of pocket.There is no doubt that you could get a seagoing boat afloat ad sailing using secondhand materials and being good at mechanics ,woodwork and wielding.As with most amateur stuff you need a minimum of two attempts at the project,there are so many mistakes to make that after finishing the boat you have a great plan for the perfect build!Steel is or was cheap but getting a good finish and using good quality equipment in fact cost quite a lot and probably only saves you your Labour costs in the end.If your not looking to resell and like your own handy work and enjoy a minimum of 5 years working partime the steel boating could be for you!

Steel is still far cheaper than plastic. Basic materials for a 36 ft shell, hull, decks, cabin, cockpit wheelhouse keel , rudder and skeg for a 36 is around $9K. So ask a commercial builder the materials cost for a36 ft plastic boat, and post it here.
With so many boats being scrapped here ,used equipment has never been cheaper , nor more of it for free. Electronics has never been cheaper.

 

[Wansworth]

Steel is still far cheaper than plastic. Basic materials for a 36 ft shell, hull, decks, cabin, cockpit wheelhouse keel , rudder and skeg for a 36 is around $9K. So ask a commercial builder the materials cost for a36 ft plastic boat, and post it here.
With so many boats being scrapped here ,used equipment has never been cheaper , nor more of it for free. Electronics has never been cheaper.

That’s interesting the basic hull deck etc was 8,500 quid in 1985! for my 40 footer

 

[JumbleDuck]

Steel is still far cheaper than plastic. Basic materials for a 36 ft shell, hull, decks, cabin, cockpit wheelhouse keel , rudder and skeg for a 36 is around $9K. So ask a commercial builder the materials cost for a36 ft plastic boat, and post it here.

Meh. Who cares? Everyone knows that the raw materials are a small proportion of the overall cost of a yacht. Of course usable scrap steel is available in a way in which usable scrap GRP is not, but then again perfectly usable old GRP hulls are available in a way in which usable old steel hulls are not.

 

[dom]

That’s interesting the basic hull deck etc was 8,500 quid in 1985! for my 40 footer

The creator of this bizarre thread returns!

Any plans to create a TV series out of it, or perhaps a Hollywood blockbuster

Who will play Brent, have you a director, are there dragons in it, and will it eclipse Game of Thrones?

 

[Daydream believer]

That’s interesting the basic hull deck etc was 8,500 quid in 1985! for my 40 footer

Interesting point here. One can easily find a 40 ft 1985 GRP boat that will serve one well for another 20 years for £20-30k (accepted there are a lot that are no good of course)
One can find a 1985 steel boat for a lot less than £ 8500, simply because it is now shite & no one wants it anymore. But try & find a good one ????

 

[Wansworth]

The creator of this bizarre thread returns!

Any plans to create a TV series out of it, or perhaps a Hollywood blockbuster

Who will play Brent, have you a director, are there dragons in it, and will it eclipse Game of Thrones?

Well I think Robert Redford could play me quite well!

 

[rotrax]

Steel is still far cheaper than plastic. Basic materials for a 36 ft shell, hull, decks, cabin, cockpit wheelhouse keel , rudder and skeg for a 36 is around $9K. So ask a commercial builder the materials cost for a36 ft plastic boat, and post it here.
With so many boats being scrapped here ,used equipment has never been cheaper , nor more of it for free. Electronics has never been cheaper.

It is often a very relevant trueism, and I feel VERY relevant in this case, that ' It is very easy to know the price of everything but the value of nothing '

Brent values steel for its strength and easy DIY qualities. Over the period he has been a boat owner he obviously found shortcomings and developed methods to address them. He uses used kit and self constructs in a manner which would not be possible in most H&S regulated countries.

It appears to me he has little else in his life other than his crusade for steel origami boats.

This is fine-it would be a sad world if we all aspired to exactly the same things.

But, he does go on far too much, and , as a poster on SA posted:- 'He wears you down with mind numbing repetition!'

In the past he has bitched that a yard asked to quote to build one of his designs wanted astronomical sums-over $250,000 Canadian Dollars.

He fails to see this is the real world, the world that most of us inhabit.

As we know by now, Brent lives in a totaly different place, and as they say in Dublin " Sure, and he is a figment of his own imagination "

 

[dom]

Well I think Robert Redford could play me quite well!

Makes sense

Could I suggest Benny Hill plays Brent and Russel Crowe plays Rotrax as he spends half his time in New Zealand?

Now, turning to the love interest ...............?

 

[TSB240]

Steel boat sale on E bay grab a bargain!

Boat launched in 1991 and now a right off after 17 years..... It's actual life in action was a mere 8 years.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40ft-Blu...963247?hash=item23bb85cbef:g:c7IAAOSw6UlcyCcO.

Don't you just love this ad. Its was obviously neglected and abandoned by its owner. Now robbed of anything worth having . The Sale pictures are from 20 years ago! I hate to think what it actually looks like now.

It is 5 tons of rusty steel and 6 tons of lead scrap abandoned in Poole harbour. I reckon the £500 bid is about the market rate by the time you have retrieved it , cut it up and weighed it in and you could have a few pennies in your pocket.

We have one in our dock that is going the same way soon.

 

[DownWest]

Six ton of lead is worth about €6k about here; The rest might need a bit of creative disposal. But.. Steel bits are worth
a bit, if you can get it to the recycling place.

 

[JumbleDuck]

When steel boat maintenance becomes too much ,it is time to remove all wood from the outside ( leave it off) and blast to white metal. Then, a cold galvanizing zinc primer above the waterline, and at least 5 coats of epoxy tar, and a colour coat , urethane or alkyde ,put on the last epoxy coat, wet on wet , for a good bond , and UV protection. Give her another colour coat , and let it harden for a week or so, before putting another colour coat on. Put your antifouling paint on the last coat of epoxy tar, wet on wet, for a good bond. That will leave you minimal maintenance ,for many years.

Or if you have a GRP boat, wash it.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Then post the pictures of them, and answer the question. How much wood was bolted to the outside of them? How many coats of epoxy did they have on them ,inside and out? How well sand blasted was the steel under the epoxy ?

No wood and If I had any close up pictures of what happened when it was last surveyed I'd post them. This boat was coded for commercial use and had been round the world at least twice. (So it qualifies under your mileage must equal fantastic claims) but it is now a derelict heap of junk like so many other steel boats.

I don't know what the paint system was as I get paid to sail these things some of the time and this was a commercially coded yacht and I wasn't involved in the painting of it.

However I know that some of the Heath Robinson contraptions and arrangements you harp on about being so brilliant on your boat wouldn't pass their commercial inspection in the UK for use on a seagoing vessel. (And don't you dare suggest that the people who set the standards don't know what they are talking about: many of the ones I deal with (as in designers and naval architects and builders and surveyors) know more about Yacht design and have sailed more miles across oceans than you dare dream about.)

I am sure that there is a place for origami (rusty) steel boats, but its a small niche market and I am extremely anxious that you 'sell the dream' to the gullible who need some reality checks about the sea and sailing. I've sailed on a shoe string and I've sailed boats that cost a lot of money. I do all the maintenance on our current boat, and I've sailed on boats that are commercially maintained but the sea is just the same and the mathematics and design criteria are just the same compromises no matter which end of the market you are in. Your idee fixee is that everyone else is wrong and you are right. (I'm not flat, the band's sharp). You are entitled to your beliefs, but please don't sell the dream to gullible people who want to escape from society to some nirvana that you paint for them.

And for there sake of clarity, it's certainly NOT a question of people buying into expensive boating image. I'm all for doing things on the cheap, but your constant harping on about people stuck on a consumer treadmill is disingenuous at best and a deceitful lie at worst.

Don't bother to reply. I can probably guess what you are going to say before you've even typed it.

 

[Brent Swain]

That’s interesting the basic hull deck etc was 8,500 quid in 1985! for my 40 footer

Steel was around $3800 back then, fewer in quid. What is the price for GRP materials today ?

 

[Brent Swain]

No wood and If I had any close up pictures of what happened when it was last surveyed I'd post them. This boat was coded for commercial use and had been round the world at least twice. (So it qualifies under your mileage must equal fantastic claims) but it is now a derelict heap of junk like so many other steel boats.

I don't know what the paint system was as I get paid to sail these things some of the time and this was a commercially coded yacht and I wasn't involved in the painting of it.

However I know that some of the Heath Robinson contraptions and arrangements you harp on about being so brilliant on your boat wouldn't pass their commercial inspection in the UK for use on a seagoing vessel. (And don't you dare suggest that the people who set the standards don't know what they are talking about: many of the ones I deal with (as in designers and naval architects and builders and surveyors) know more about Yacht design and have sailed more miles across oceans than you dare dream about.)

I am sure that there is a place for origami (rusty) steel boats, but its a small niche market and I am extremely anxious that you 'sell the dream' to the gullible who need some reality checks about the sea and sailing. I've sailed on a shoe string and I've sailed boats that cost a lot of money. I do all the maintenance on our current boat, and I've sailed on boats that are commercially maintained but the sea is just the same and the mathematics and design criteria are just the same compromises no matter which end of the market you are in. Your idee fixee is that everyone else is wrong and you are right. (I'm not flat, the band's sharp). You are entitled to your beliefs, but please don't sell the dream to gullible people who want to escape from society to some nirvana that you paint for them.

And for there sake of clarity, it's certainly NOT a question of people buying into expensive boating image. I'm all for doing things on the cheap, but your constant harping on about people stuck on a consumer treadmill is disingenuous at best and a deceitful lie at worst.

Don't bother to reply. I can probably guess what you are going to say before you've even typed it.

You say people with circumnavigations, and decades of experience in my boats, including those on their third , don't know as much about them as you do, and are 'Gullible " about them? Believing you , someone who hasn't , by his own admission, figured out how to minimize maintenance , and get it right, would be my definition of "gullible". You say that which has worked well for over 40 years, and hundreds of thousands of miles, wont work ?
You say we should believe bureaucrats who have never sailed on one, over those who circumnavigated on one ? That would be gullible!

Who is Heath Robinson?
Commercially made 'Approved " gear, can be incredibly fragile, compared to what back yard builders build. "Approved "often means having greased the palm of a bureaucrat ,or paid for an election campaign.
No, commercially made pulpits, stanchions and stern rails of super thin, tig welded , extruded tinfoil, are not as strong as sch 40 stainless pipe, stick welded , yet is "approved!"

A freind just showed me some super shinny electro polished fittings , 5mm ss welded with a tig weld not much thicker than a beer can, very common in the yottie business.

 

[Resolution]

"Approved "often means having greased the palm of a bureaucrat ,or paid for an election campaign.

I think that assertion needs to be supported by actual evidence. (From the boat construction world about which you are writing.)

 

[rotrax]

I think that assertion needs to be supported by actual evidence. (From the boat construction world about which you are writing.)

You wont get anything like that from this dude-he will answer a question with a rambling diatribe on something he thinks is positive about steel origami boats.

Answer a direct question with a straight answer-in several threads where he has been a predominant poster he has failed to do so.

He is a one trick pony, and that trick does not include replying to questions that might weaken his position after lots of anecdotes and total bolleux that are tenuous to say the least.

As he lives in a different place to the rest of us, he obviously cannot understand when something becomes an economical disaster. He thinks throwing a bit of steel and welding at it is the answer.