Steelboats

[JumbleDuck]

Properly built, steel boat appropriate detailing, properly epoxied inside and out. Well maintained. A well proven design, well proven over decades, and tens of thousands of open ocean miles, along with some extreme torture test survivals.

And otherwise GRP is better, right?

 

[rotrax]

Yes, screw up on the paint job, and detailing, and a steel boat will be a nightmare , just like the nightmares on the plastic boats I mentioned. Get it wrong on any boat, and you will have nightmare, regardless of material. Get a steel boat right, and it can be very low maintenance.
Keep touching up the dings on a steel boat, as they happen , a couple of hours a year, and maintenance is no problem. Let then get away on you, and you definitely will have maintenance problems, just as with any boat, made of any material. 2 hours or so a year is well worth it, for the peace of mind a steel hull gives me while cruising on a dark, moonless night. Given what I have hit at night , I wouldn't be here, had I been in a plastic boat. No, they were not on the chart! No, I couldn't stay awake for the weeks at sea those passages took!
Yes Rotax, your paint job was obviously a screwup, from the outset,or you wouldn't have had such a problem with it.
Did your steel boat have wood ( dead vegetation) bolted on the outside of her?

As I have reapeatedly told you, it is now 33 years old.

It was built without your excellent build and anti corrosion protection, probably because your information was not out there at the time it was built.

All your retoric about steel boats and the ease of maintenance is fine-if in fact it is true, and we only have your word for that at the end of the day-but it must be accepted, even by you, the hardest bloke in the world to convince of enything, that most steel boats in existence were not built the way you suggest.

Ergo, some time down the line, shit happens. They go rusty. The numbers of rusty steel boats around the world prove this beyond dispute.

By your standards and recomendations, my Hartley was built with shortcomings, as were most steel boats. As it is uneconomical to rip them out and start again because of the poor retained value of steel boats, what are we to do?

You will make a lot of friends if you come up with an answer to this.

And I mean a real world answer, not one that only works for an unemployed floater without the responsibilities and commitments of normal people, and taking into account normal H&S requirements.

Because Brent, you are not normal. You and others with your philosophy are outside of normal life, as most in the world live their lives.

And to be honest, I believe that your stated couple of hours a year is total fantasy. Like building a simple block in a few minutes. I have pro experience of work/time rates from many years in the auto and motorcycle repair industries, plus being as handy a bloke with the tools as you are likely to find in a long days march.

I expect most on here who are experienced in long term boat ownership also believe the same.

 

[Resolution]

And to be honest, I believe that your stated couple of hours a year is total fantasy..

BS cannot spend much more than that on boat maintenance coz he spends all the rest of his time booming away on these forums.:sleeping:

 

[rotrax]

BS cannot spend much more than that on boat maintenance coz he spends all the rest of his time booming away on these forums.:sleeping:

You have me there!

 

[JumbleDuck]

All your retoric about steel boats and the ease of maintenance is fine-if in fact it is true, and we only have your word for that at the end of the day-but it must be accepted, even by you, the hardest bloke in the world to convince of enything, that most steel boats in existence were not built the way you suggest.

A significant proportion, it seems, are built by amateurs in their gardens by tacking sheets of steel together and then fitting out with second hand and scrap stuff. It appears that most of these spend much of their lives hitting rocks, perhaps because their owners show the same lofty disregard for navigation as they do for structural engineering.

Of course the toughest small vessels in the world - and the most likely to hit other boats or bits of land - are undoubtedly RNLI lifeboats. I wonder what they are made of?

Shannon:

Tamar:

Severn:

Trent:

Hmm. Am I seeing a pattern here?

 

[rotrax]

A significant proportion, it seems, are built by amateurs in their gardens by tacking sheets of steel together and then fitting out with second hand and scrap stuff. It appears that most of these spend much of their lives hitting rocks, perhaps because their owners show the same lofty disregard for navigation as they do for structural engineering.

Of course the toughest small vessels in the world - and the most likely to hit other boats or bits of land - are undoubtedly RNLI lifeboats. I wonder what they are made of?

Shannon:

Tamar:

Severn:

Trent:

Hmm. Am I seeing a pattern here?

No, No, No, you have it wrong.

Its not FRP, its PLASTIC. Got that - PLASTIC!

This bloke Brent " Bull$H1t " Swain told me...................................

 

[DownWest]

No, No, No, you have it wrong.

Its not FRP, its PLASTIC. Got that - PLASTIC!

This bloke Brent " Bull$H1t " Swain told me...................................

Hey Rotrax, don't get so wound up. It is a another world, they do things diferently there, (with apologies to JP Hartley)

 

[rotrax]

Hey Rotrax, don't get so wound up. It is a another world, they do things diferently there, (with apologies to JP Hartley)

Thanks for reminding me.

I do have a copy of the book " Fly Fishing " by J.R. Hartley-I'm sure thats who you meant - and, spoof or not, written long after the TV advertisment made it famous, it is a good read and very relaxing. As are most non instructional Angling books, I find.

Brings the stress levels down, which are bought on by posters who suggest outrageous and sometimes untrue things on here.

Thank you again........................

 

[caiman]

Lots of RNLI Lifeboats used to be made out of steel(the last steel hull Tyne is out of Service this year,Wicklow)-I have not heard of any steel RNLI Lifeboats that have been wrecked in 'Service'.
All modern all weather Lifeboats are made of FRC,I've heard of at least two(Severn class,Trent class,one of each) that have been wrecked/total loss due to relativly low speed impact/wave action aground on rocks.
SomeTamars suffered from delamination in normal use without hitting anything harder than water.
Modern Lifeboats are 'fast' planing or semi planing hulls,'traditional' Lifeboats were displacement hulls.
No way am I going to enter into any arguement with any of you 'experts',but IMHO facts/history should be taken into consideration in your discussions.
Hope this helps

Cheers

 

[JumbleDuck]

Lots of RNLI Lifeboats used to be made out of steel(the last steel hull Tyne is out of Service this year,Wicklow)-I have not heard of any steel RNLI Lifeboats that have been wrecked in 'Service'.
All modern all weather Lifeboats are made of FRC,I've heard of at least two(Severn class,Trent class,one of each) that have been wrecked/total loss due to relativly low speed impact/wave action aground on rocks.

Presumably the RNLI thinks that steel would have been worse. By the way, the Katie Hannan was pounded on Rathlin for two days and did not break up, although she was beyond economic repair. The same goes, as far as I know, for the Sir Ronald Petchell Bt. at Dunbar, which was thrown onto rocks and then pounded by a gale.

 

[DownWest]

Actually L.P...

What is interesting about the RNLI is they use FRC and expect to hit things as part of the job.

 

[rotrax]

Presumably the RNLI thinks that steel would have been worse. By the way, the Katie Hannan was pounded on Rathlin for two days and did not break up, although she was beyond economic repair. The same goes, as far as I know, for the Sir Ronald Petchell Bt. at Dunbar, which was thrown onto rocks and then pounded by a gale.

The question here is, would a steel hull have been more suitable?

It sounds like the impact speed was not an issue, but heavy wave action was.

We know that our coastline cant possibly be as hostile as the Baja surf beaches or South Pacific reefs-my mate Brent says so..................................................

Mind you, I have just read the wonderfull book " The Lighthouse Stevensons "

During the building of-IIRC-Muckle Flugga, a 26 ton block of stone required for the base, quarried at great physical hardship from Muckle Flugga's base stone itself, was washed away by a storm. The work could only be carried out for a few weeks in the summer due to the sea action.

It is a sobering read about how these important lighthouses were built.

 

[dom]

Mind you, I have just read the wonderfull book " The Lighthouse Stevensons "

During the building of-IIRC-Muckle Flugga, a 26 ton block of stone required for the base, quarried at great physical hardship from Muckle Flugga's base stone itself, was washed away by a storm. The work could only be carried out for a few weeks in the summer due to the sea action.

How much engineering has come on since back in the day. Today a BS boat would be parked atop the base structure, for this renders them totally immovable for up to six weeks I think. Even during consecutive severe Baja storms I understand.

I also understand a better lighthouse can be quickly welded together from beach scrap.

 

[JumbleDuck]

What is interesting about the RNLI is they use FRC and expect to hit things as part of the job.

That was what impressed me. Perhaps they think that a material which can bounce off is better than one which deforms?

During the building of-IIRC-Muckle Flugga, a 26 ton block of stone required for the base, quarried at great physical hardship from Muckle Flugga's base stone itself, was washed away by a storm. The work could only be carried out for a few weeks in the summer due to the sea action.

It is a sobering read about how these important lighthouses were built.

Quite astonishing stories. I think it was at Dubh Artach (may have been Skerryvore) where they returned to the finished tower after leaving it for the winter and found a boulder weighing over a hundredweight in the lantern gallery.

One of the Stevensons (proud boast: my grandmother was a distant member of the family) offered to built a lighthouse on Rockall. The estimated cost was astonishing and so it never happened. I wonder how many building days per year they would have had out there.

How much engineering has come on since back in the day. Today a BS boat would be parked atop the base structure, for this renders them totally immovable for up to six weeks I think. Even during consecutive severe Baja storms I understand.

I find the use of "BS" in these discussions very confusing. So many plausible meanings. Well, two.

I also understand a better lighthouse can be quickly welded together from beach scrap.

Well, there is this ...

... but it's cast iron, not bits of cheap sheet pulled together with ratchet straps and then tack welded by amateurs.

 

[Brent Swain]

Those of us who have hands on experience of steel boats recognise fantasy for what it is.

No one in the world has a steel boat and sails her regularly and only spends two hours a year on maintenance of the paint.

Brent’s clocks seem to run at a different rate to the rest of us. It must be the same clock he uses when fabricating Heath Robinson bits for his boat that are claimed to be so much better than anyone else’s.

Most of my clients do , at least for the first ten or fifteen years.
C'mon John, show us some pictures of the screwup you sailed on ,so we can discus what you were doing wrong. What are you trying to hide, by refusing to post them?

 

[Brent Swain]

Is this you?

 

[Brent Swain]

Actually L.P...

What is interesting about the RNLI is they use FRC and expect to hit things as part of the job.

Not built like your average stock plastic boat. If anyone tried to build a stock boat that way ,they would quickly be put out of business, by competition building cheaper, flimsier boats. Don't expect that from most stock plastic boats.

 

[Brent Swain]

As I have reapeatedly told you, it is now 33 years old.

It was built without your excellent build and anti corrosion protection, probably because your information was not out there at the time it was built.

All your retoric about steel boats and the ease of maintenance is fine-if in fact it is true, and we only have your word for that at the end of the day-but it must be accepted, even by you, the hardest bloke in the world to convince of enything, that most steel boats in existence were not built the way you suggest.

Ergo, some time down the line, shit happens. They go rusty. The numbers of rusty steel boats around the world prove this beyond dispute.

By your standards and recomendations, my Hartley was built with shortcomings, as were most steel boats. As it is uneconomical to rip them out and start again because of the poor retained value of steel boats, what are we to do?

You will make a lot of friends if you come up with an answer to this.

And I mean a real world answer, not one that only works for an unemployed floater without the responsibilities and commitments of normal people, and taking into account normal H&S requirements.

Because Brent, you are not normal. You and others with your philosophy are outside of normal life, as most in the world live their lives.

And to be honest, I believe that your stated couple of hours a year is total fantasy. Like building a simple block in a few minutes. I have pro experience of work/time rates from many years in the auto and motorcycle repair industries, plus being as handy a bloke with the tools as you are likely to find in a long days march.

I expect most on here who are experienced in long term boat ownership also believe the same.

When steel boat maintenance becomes too much ,it is time to remove all wood from the outside ( leave it off) and blast to white metal. Then, a cold galvanizing zinc primer above the waterline, and at least 5 coats of epoxy tar, and a colour coat , urethane or alkyde ,put on the last epoxy coat, wet on wet , for a good bond , and UV protection. Give her another colour coat , and let it harden for a week or so, before putting another colour coat on. Put your antifouling paint on the last coat of epoxy tar, wet on wet, for a good bond. That will leave you minimal maintenance ,for many years.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Most of my clients do , at least for the first ten or fifteen years.
C'mon John, show us some pictures of the screwup you sailed on ,so we can discus what you were doing wrong. What are you trying to hide, by refusing to post them?

I’ve had the dubious pleasure of sailing several steel boats. I’m not hiding anything.

 

[rotrax]

When steel boat maintenance becomes too much ,it is time to remove all wood from the outside ( leave it off) and blast to white metal. Then, a cold galvanizing zinc primer above the waterline, and at least 5 coats of epoxy tar, and a colour coat , urethane or alkyde ,put on the last epoxy coat, wet on wet , for a good bond , and UV protection. Give her another colour coat , and let it harden for a week or so, before putting another colour coat on. Put your antifouling paint on the last coat of epoxy tar, wet on wet, for a good bond. That will leave you minimal maintenance ,for many years.

As I have said before, the old tub just aint worth going to that expense.

Even though you obviously can do stuff faster than Superman, cost that lot out if, like me, physical problems make it neccessary to have the yard do it.

Hauling, cradle for at least three weeks, time in the yard, tenting for the blasting plus the materials make it an unrealistic proposition for someone in my position.

I would be lucky to get 10,000 NZ Dollars for it, and at the moment it looks the best it ever has in my ownership after new windows and other works.

I am only in NZ for 4 months each year, next time I will be doing more sailing and less maintanence.

The vessel only has two teak strips screwed to the upper hull as rubbing strakes. There is only one small area of rust at the bow end, port side.

These teak strips are due to be removed next time we are in the yard. The only other exterior timber is the helm seat, teak, on a timber frame so no rust, and the heavy-20mm-ply doghouse, bolted to the steel over the companionway. No rust or corrosion here at all. The flush deck and cockpit require painting, the old-and very thick-non skid is weathering badly and coming off.

I have done my best, as I thought it out, to maintain the vessel bearing in mind my wife and I wont see 70 again and have mobility problems.

She sails very well now we have attended to a poor mainsail, the engine is dead on after I pulled it in bits to free stuck rings and got the injector tips replaced and the only improvement I would like to make is an anchor windlass-I struggle to pull it up in Wellingtons winds.

It is set up for liveaboard, electric toilet, microwave with grill and oven, two burner cooker, lots of sensible storage and a three way fridge, califont hot water. Very good order inside, light bright and dry. Fair upholstery, two small solar panels.

But, it is not worth much money.

Because it is a Steel boat!