Steelboats

[SlowlyButSurely]

No wood and If I had any close up pictures of what happened when it was last surveyed I'd post them. This boat was coded for commercial use and had been round the world at least twice. (So it qualifies under your mileage must equal fantastic claims) but it is now a derelict heap of junk like so many other steel boats.

I don't know what the paint system was as I get paid to sail these things some of the time and this was a commercially coded yacht and I wasn't involved in the painting of it.

However I know that some of the Heath Robinson contraptions and arrangements you harp on about being so brilliant on your boat wouldn't pass their commercial inspection in the UK for use on a seagoing vessel. (And don't you dare suggest that the people who set the standards don't know what they are talking about: many of the ones I deal with (as in designers and naval architects and builders and surveyors) know more about Yacht design and have sailed more miles across oceans than you dare dream about.)

I am sure that there is a place for origami (rusty) steel boats, but its a small niche market and I am extremely anxious that you 'sell the dream' to the gullible who need some reality checks about the sea and sailing. I've sailed on a shoe string and I've sailed boats that cost a lot of money. I do all the maintenance on our current boat, and I've sailed on boats that are commercially maintained but the sea is just the same and the mathematics and design criteria are just the same compromises no matter which end of the market you are in. Your idee fixee is that everyone else is wrong and you are right. (I'm not flat, the band's sharp). You are entitled to your beliefs, but please don't sell the dream to gullible people who want to escape from society to some nirvana that you paint for them.

And for there sake of clarity, it's certainly NOT a question of people buying into expensive boating image. I'm all for doing things on the cheap, but your constant harping on about people stuck on a consumer treadmill is disingenuous at best and a deceitful lie at worst.

Don't bother to reply. I can probably guess what you are going to say before you've even typed it.

Who are these gullible people that you are so anxious about? I've never met one. All the steel boat owners I have met have been very practical types, many of whom bought a steel boat because they discovered that you can get a lot of boat for not much money and susequently discovered the other benefits.

 

[rotrax]

Who are these gullible people that you are so anxious about? I've never met one. All the steel boat owners I have met have been very practical types, many of whom bought a steel boat because they discovered that you can get a lot of boat for not much money and susequently discovered the other benefits.

I think John is speaking of those potential world girdlers who are happy to give it a go, but are impecunious.

Brent's philosophy works for those with the practicality and skills to build and maintain such a vessel, but would not for many who lack them.

Perhaps these fall into the trap of taking Brents evangelism as gospel, believing that a home built origami steel boat is a universal panacea for cheap world girdling.

Would they be considered gullible-not for me to say.

However, on SA, under the title " $H1t Brent Swain says ", he states quite clearly that one of his boats encountered 95 MPH-might even have been Knot's -winds, on the nose, and carried on sailing. As if it were normal.

As anyone who has sailed a bit knows, they are survival conditions.

It would be gullible to believe otherwise.............................

 

[dom]

Further to JM and Rotrax, Brent's stability calcs were found to be riddled with errors, which coupled with further basic errors on loading parameters risk a dangerously unstable boat.

His dismissal of fire-safety regulations as the work of bribable officials, and secondary-safety requirements such as liferafts as the work of ill-informed bureaucrats are simply ridiculous. The manifest inability of his vessels to make way upwind in a blow - as is from time to time necessary to claw off a lee shore - is persistently challenged by Brent, despite his boats spending more time parked on reefs than any boat one can think of. Though according to him they come to no harm there!

Then there is the quality of his welding, probably a touch better than mine I must admit; before I was booted out of metalwork at 11 year's old.

To be fair, Brent is almost certainly just playing a 'Mad Max Goes Cruising' troll; a keyboard warrior fighting the high-tech world he so despises! But if he's serious, well that's a bit sad.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Who are these gullible people that you are so anxious about? I've never met one. All the steel boat owners I have met have been very practical types, many of whom bought a steel boat because they discovered that you can get a lot of boat for not much money and susequently discovered the other benefits.

Brent’s target market (by his own admission) are the off grid wannabes who are caught up in a dream of a sailing lifestyle that’s cheap or free.

I’ve met a few of them in my sailing in various places round the world and a theme seems to be that they either learn quickly or crash their boats or pile themselves into rocks or sandbanks or reefs (can you see any connections with this thread?)

Brent sells dreams (like all boat sellers). The problem is that he sells potentially dangerous dreams. His claims that it ‘must be safe’ because ‘my boats have sailed thousands of miles’ is spurious nonsense.

Sir Francis Chichester sailed round the world in Gypsy Moth IV and that boat’s been round the world again since but it’s universally admitted that boat sailed like a dog. Miles prove nothing except that the vessel stayed afloat. Commercial boat builders aren’t fools. If the material and design and construction methods espoused by Brent were so good, then they’d be buying his plans and building them and selling them.

Try asking Brent for his GZ curve and stability calculations... all you’ll get is dross about how they've survived storms of winds of xxx mph and this ‘proves’ they’re safe. I offered to get a Naval Architect to run the calculations but no plans with enough detail to allow the calcs to be done were forthcoming.

The rant against the establishment and it’s experts who know nothing is lapped up by his target market.

I’m all for innovation and challenging ‘received wisdom’ but the complete denigration of all other designers and the entire yachting world/industry/experience/expertise says rather a lot about Mr Swain.

At the end of the day I worry about his being allowed to use these threads to promote his sometimes wacky ideas and designs. And that’s why I talk about selling to the gullible.

 

[Wansworth]

Back in the1970s there was a ferrocement building cottage industry encouraged by some Canadian company it offered a supposedly cheap way to get afloat in a big boat much of the hype was about selling a dream but there where books about the subject including one by Pete Greenfield.Not being of the dreaming age now having had my dreams stoked by Hiscock and co who indeed missed out a lot of detail on the reality of ocean wandering,but it was a time when people needed dreams .Brent is harmless,has a bigger audience because of the web but I reckon it’s doing a disservice to people to think they are so gullible,maybe a seed of building a steel boat will be planted which won’t be a bad thing.........as they are recyclable!

 

[john_morris_uk]

Back in the1970s there was a ferrocement building cottage industry encouraged by some Canadian company it offered a supposedly cheap way to get afloat in a big boat much of the hype was about selling a dream but there where books about the subject including one by Pete Greenfield.Not being of the dreaming age now having had my dreams stoked by Hiscock and co who indeed missed out a lot of detail on the reality of ocean wandering,but it was a time when people needed dreams .Brent is harmless,has a bigger audience because of the web but I reckon it’s doing a disservice to people to think they are so gullible,maybe a seed of building a steel boat will be planted which won’t be a bad thing.........as they are recyclable!

I think where we differ is in your assertion that Brent is harmless.

Some of the things that Brent espouses with such vigour are pretty stupid and although we can agree to disagree about 'gullible' there are any number of people who want to believe that what he says is true.

But don't worry, he'll be along soon to say that he's been doing it this way for years and somehow that proves his case. (Complete twaddle, but some people get taken in.)

 

[Brent Swain]

Here is a recent quote from a facebook site

Brent, you're right there. There have been a few boats lost from our club over the last 20 years - complete sinkings at sea, at night, with none of them seeing what they hit. One of them was a grab bag abandonment and the raft went down with the boat. The other matter regarding a steel boat is the keel strength. With a whopping stem bar connected down all the way through the first keel frame and hull frames going down into the keel, it's impossible to part the keel from the hull. Huge comfort at sea or exploring around reef areas. The idea of a heavy steel/lead keel bolted to a plastic boat gives me the collywobbles.

 

[rotrax]

I strongly suspect it was a one issue facebook site.

Using my intuition-and having had some experience of the poster of #1107-I expect it was a steel boat facebook site.

So, absolutly no bias or implied preference there then!

Brent-you have been here before. Several well respected senior members of this forum have asked for verification of events like the above and you have only replied with vauge generalisations. Many of the vessels you alleged had been lost were accounted for later.

So, stop feeding us this Tosh.

We are adult enough to make our own minds up without your help.

 

[JumbleDuck]

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I would have written it all off to experience, but this guy completed the restoration. This might go some way to explaining why used steel boats are so cheap.

What a nightmare, and seriously, rotted balsa core or this ... same ballpark IMHO.

https://www.thecoastalpassage.com/rust.html

 

[GHA]

I would have written it all off to experience, but this guy completed the restoration. This might go some way to explaining why used steel boats are so cheap.

What a nightmare, and seriously, rotted balsa core or this ... same ballpark IMHO.



https://www.thecoastalpassage.com/rust.html

Interestingly it echoes very simple advice hidden away in this bickerfest of a thread many times for avoiding steel boat calamities. Strong reason for avoiding many factory built boats and going for a well designed and built self build.

. How to judge a steel boat? Very briefly, look around as you board. Is deck gear bolted through the decks? Or on raised flanges? Leaks on decks ruin steel. Is there timber fastened to the steel? Oh oh.. look carefully around the edges of the timber for signs of fresh paint to hide the rust scale. Go below and look immediately for the lowest point in the bilges. Not accessible? Walk away. Accessible? Is it dry?

 

[rotrax]

Interestingly it echoes very simple advice hidden away in this bickerfest of a thread many times for avoiding steel boat calamities. Strong reason for avoiding many factory built boats and going for a well designed and built self build.

All good advice, and advice I followed when buying my own steel boat.

For £4250.00 as a fully equiped and fully functioning liveaboard.

The Marina berth it was transferable to the new owner and was designated as a liveaboard berth and was at least £1000.00 of the cost-they are Rocking Horse in Wellington, as is all inexpensive living space.

It had been on the market for over a year.

As I have said before, little, if any, retained value. It does not matter how good or safe a vessel it is, if its steel its hard to sell and get any return on the initial investment. DIY rebuild and improvements should be costed out at an average hourly rate to get an idea of the real world cost of restoration against sale price achieved.

IMHO, of course, and speaking as a steel boat owner for five years.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

It dawned on me yesterday, one of the massive advantages of a steel boat ....

There was a perverse logic that said if you want to travel more safely by air then take a bomb onto the plane, the perverse logic being that the probability of two bombers independently bombing the same flight is infinitessimal.

Perhaps one could apply the same perverse logic to going to sea in a steel boat, an advantage not yet mentioned by Mr. Swain .... if you want to avoid hitting a container at sea, then sail in one. The probability of two containers colliding with each other must also be pretty low.

 

[Wansworth]

Having had built a hull anddeck in steel I would do so again ,now I am equipped with prior knowledge of how to do fit out and treat steel and making use of secondhand stuff.......but I am not going to!

 

[rotrax]

Having had built a hull anddeck in steel I would do so again ,now I am equipped with prior knowledge of how to do fit out and treat steel and making use of secondhand stuff.......but I am not going to!

Quite right. It is a young mans game-or an unemployed person who is time rich, with funds-or not-to do it.

When you are more mature and have been there and done it or similar stuff, the appeal is gone.

In my case anyway.

BS has given excellent advice to owners and potential owners of steel boats, but his one man crusade to convert mankind to his way of it is doomed.

IMHO, of course...................

 

[Wansworth]

One of the advantages of being rich you can have another go at it so to speak,I will be content with a much smaller boat now and in grp!

 

[Brent Swain]

I strongly suspect it was a one issue facebook site.

Using my intuition-and having had some experience of the poster of #1107-I expect it was a steel boat facebook site.

So, absolutly no bias or implied preference there then!

Brent-you have been here before. Several well respected senior members of this forum have asked for verification of events like the above and you have only replied with vauge generalisations. Many of the vessels you alleged had been lost were accounted for later.

So, stop feeding us this Tosh.



We are adult enough to make our own minds up without your help.

It's on the metal boat society facebook forum, a great discussion, from people who know a lot about metal boats ,not just what they read ,written by plastic boats salesmen, and those with plastic boats, trying to comfort themselves with group naivety .

No, those who try comfort themselves with naivety don't need warnings form those less naive, nor reality , anymore than lemmings need to be warned of the cliff ahead.
Your suggestion is; those who have decades of steel boat experience, should not be passing on what we have learned, if it is in contradiction of that which is given by those with little or no such experience?
LOL!
Ya sure!
You are hilarious!

 

[Brent Swain]

I think where we differ is in your assertion that Brent is harmless.

Some of the things that Brent espouses with such vigour are pretty stupid and although we can agree to disagree about 'gullible' there are any number of people who want to believe that what he says is true.

But don't worry, he'll be along soon to say that he's been doing it this way for years and somehow that proves his case. (Complete twaddle, but some people get taken in.)

With a constant stream of problems with standard ,high priced furlers, anchor winches ,etc costing thousands of dollars, what does John call someone who comes up with one costing around $150 ,and $75 ,and giving zero problems in decades?
Stupid!
LOL!
John, you are hilarious!
Einstien summed it up well, when he said;
"The problem with smart people, is they look like crazy people to stupid people."

 

[john_morris_uk]

With a constant stream of problems with standard ,high priced furlers, anchor winches ,etc costing thousands of dollars, what does John call someone who comes up with one costing around $150 ,and $75 ,and giving zero problems in decades?
Stupid!
LOL!
John, you are hilarious!
Einstien summed it up well, when he said;
"The problem with smart people, is they look like crazy people to stupid people."

There’s nothing funny about encouraging people to make dangerous equipment.

I’m all for saving money and DIY lots of things on my own boat. I have designed and had welded up lots of bits of stainless work for various modifications and improvements to our own boat. (I don’t weld them myself because I know that my amateur welding isn’t very neat and may not be strong either)

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

All good advice, and advice I followed when buying my own steel boat.

For £4250.00 as a fully equiped and fully functioning liveaboard.

The Marina berth it was transferable to the new owner and was designated as a liveaboard berth and was at least £1000.00 of the cost-they are Rocking Horse in Wellington, as is all inexpensive living space.

It had been on the market for over a year.

As I have said before, little, if any, retained value. It does not matter how good or safe a vessel it is, if its steel its hard to sell and get any return on the initial investment. DIY rebuild and improvements should be costed out at an average hourly rate to get an idea of the real world cost of restoration against sale price achieved.

IMHO, of course, and speaking as a steel boat owner for five years.

Let's assume that your steel boat is worth nothing. Depreciation will have cost you less than £1000 pa. How does that compare with the depreciation on your IP?