Steelboats

[NotBirdseye]

In Bruce Roberts book on steel boat building there is a rough analysis of vaious boat building materials rating various factors to come up with a total

He's written a few, which one am I looking for?

 

[NormanS]

No wood and If I had any close up pictures of what happened when it was last surveyed I'd post them. This boat was coded for commercial use and had been round the world at least twice. (So it qualifies under your mileage must equal fantastic claims) but it is now a derelict heap of junk like so many other steel boats.

I don't know what the paint system was as I get paid to sail these things some of the time and this was a commercially coded yacht and I wasn't involved in the painting of it.

However I know that some of the Heath Robinson contraptions and arrangements you harp on about being so brilliant on your boat wouldn't pass their commercial inspection in the UK for use on a seagoing vessel. (And don't you dare suggest that the people who set the standards don't know what they are talking about: many of the ones I deal with (as in designers and naval architects and builders and surveyors) know more about Yacht design and have sailed more miles across oceans than you dare dream about.)

I am sure that there is a place for origami (rusty) steel boats, but its a small niche market and I am extremely anxious that you 'sell the dream' to the gullible who need some reality checks about the sea and sailing. I've sailed on a shoe string and I've sailed boats that cost a lot of money. I do all the maintenance on our current boat, and I've sailed on boats that are commercially maintained but the sea is just the same and the mathematics and design criteria are just the same compromises no matter which end of the market you are in. Your idee fixee is that everyone else is wrong and you are right. (I'm not flat, the band's sharp). You are entitled to your beliefs, but please don't sell the dream to gullible people who want to escape from society to some nirvana that you paint for them.

And for there sake of clarity, it's certainly NOT a question of people buying into expensive boating image. I'm all for doing things on the cheap, but your constant harping on about people stuck on a consumer treadmill is disingenuous at best and a deceitful lie at worst.

Don't bother to reply. I can probably guess what you are going to say before you've even typed it.

Sorry for the long delay in responding to this. (Been away sailing).
At the start of your fourth paragraph, you say ".......origami (rusty).......", as if the two words mean the same. Was that your intended meaning, or was it just your prejudices hanging out? We deserve an explanation.

Personally, having built a steel yacht using more traditional, and obviously more time consuming methods, I am fascinated by the origami method. Obviously, if you can reliably persuade me that origami = rusty, my interest in the construction method will wane. Can you justify your statement?

 

[Brent Swain]

Sorry for the long delay in responding to this. (Been away sailing).
At the start of your fourth paragraph, you say ".......origami (rusty).......", as if the two words mean the same. Was that your intended meaning, or was it just your prejudices hanging out? We deserve an explanation.

Personally, having built a steel yacht using more traditional, and obviously more time consuming methods, I am fascinated by the origami method. Obviously, if you can reliably persuade me that origami = rusty, my interest in the construction method will wane. Can you justify your statement?

Search, yahoo groups origamiboats
Select, home origamiboats
Decades of info there, from people who know the subject well, having built, or owned and cruised in origamiboats ,some for decades .
Search Silas Crosby
Search Tagish.
Far more reliable info ,than from those who have never owned an origami boat, and have never seen one, yet claim to be experts on the subject, more so than someone with over 4 decades of hands on experience with them.

 

[Brent Swain]

In Bruce Roberts book on steel boat building there is a rough analysis of vaious boat building materials rating various factors to come up with a total

In his book "The Complete Guide to Metal Boats " he said skegs should be designed to fall of if they hit anything.
A friend, circumnavigating in a Roberts, said he saw sister ship to his , hauled out in Brisbane ,which had sunk from a skeg failure.
He welded a couple of diagonal flat bars to his before continuing on. His next boat was one of my designs. In Sidney BC I saw several hauled out ,with the flat bars added .

Best way to get adequate structural strength for a high aspect skeg, is to run it right thru to the cockpit sole, for two point support, the hull and the cockpit

 

[NotBirdseye]

That's about as helpful to the original question as a chocolate teapot. :/.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent, give the rest of the world a break and get some mental help.
________________________________________________________________________
In communist countries those are called "Re-education camps." What you are advocating is the consumerism version.
You say those who spend their lives in debt ,and their mornings going to work, at jobs they hate , for money they don't need to buy things they don't need, to impress people they don't like , while dreaming of retiring are "sane?"
But those who semi retire in our 20s, to do as we please, year round , 11 months a year , sleep as late as we please , sail anywhere we please ,any time ,are crazy?
Einstien said it well, when he said;
"The problem with smart people ,is they sound like crazy people, to stupid people!"
________________________________________________________________

You keep coming back and quoting the same old stories to promote your style of building. The Sleavins.. Yes, they got hit by a ship. That is the only fact. You use it to sell your style of building steel boats. Reality is, they suffered what ever the material was and there is no way of knowing if a steel hull would have saved them.
_____________________________________________________________
The Gringo incident proves it probably would have saved them.
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You contradict yourself in the last paragraph about building your own. Previously you proudly crowed about how little you paid for used sails and other kit, while ignoring that someone paid full price for them when new, so effectivly subsidising your 'free' lifestyle. But, of course, you hold them in contempt for being conned.
_______________________________________________________________
Sounds like you are yet another preacher for Squanderism, the moral need to squander resources, and be as wasteful as possible, of limited resources ,an enviromentally irresponsible way of thinking.
If there was life left in those used sails, their original owner could have used it .His choice not to , gave me every right to be more environmentally responsible with them.
________________________________________________________
Take a long look at yourself and what you are saying, it is not very attractive to others.
The real reason you are being questioned is not about 'steel boats' but your attitude to just about every other sailing person and your rubbishing of their views.
____________________________________________________________
The suggestion being I should support ,and advocate what I don't believe"
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And, quoting your websites like 'origami boats' etc is a bit rich, as anybody who doesn't drink your coolaid gets booted off them pretty quick. So much for open discussion.
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The only one who gets booted off, are those posting that which has nothing to do with the subject matter, in an attempt to sabotage the site, as Bob Perry has done with so many steel boat discussions, and would have done to the origamiboats site, had we let him. One of his opening posts, was to insult everyone on the site.
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Edit: I expect the people who have gone on to careers after building your boats have had to face up to the realities of real life and running a business and charging the market rate, while paying their taxes.

The kind of approach which limits owning a good, new, custom steel boat to the rich, which is obviously your elitist , main goal .
I am the only one posting ways to make cruising more affordable , while my critics constantly throw disinformation roadblocks in the way of low income cruisers , and trash anything which is not expensive .

What you advocate, has nothing to do with reality, for those who cant afford that option, or who would rather spend more of their lives having fun, than working to pay off debts and bank interest.
People I built boats for provide the space ,tools , and tradesmen's wages, along with any work they can do, saving a fortune over those who expect them to pay someone else for what they can do themselves , and pay shop rent for long periods of time when the shop is empty, just to keep someone in business( corporate charity) ..
What I have been doing is much fairer.

We colonials find hilarious , your British , passive , fatalist, groveling to an arbitrary , childish, class pecking order.
LOL!
In Canada ,below a certain income level, no income taxes are payable. I live very comfortably below that level. Ones personal environmental impact is directly porportionate to how much money one needs . I am entitled to my rewards, for living so environmentally responsibly .
Now tell me how I am avoiding sales taxes , fuel taxes, etc , so I can try out your ideas, on how I manage that.
LOL!
You are hilarious!

 

[Brent Swain]

That's about as helpful to the original question as a chocolate teapot. :/.

To those who would rather sit in a yacht club bar, and talk about boats and cruising, endlessly, than get in a boat and go cruising? True, you are right about that!
Nice westerly blowing, broad reach to a nice lake.I'm going swimming, you go back to work for your status symbols.
How long am I going for ?Indefinitely

 

[newtothis]

How long am I going for ?Indefinitely

Promise?

 

[NotBirdseye]

To those who would rather sit in a yacht club bar, and talk about boats and cruising, endlessly, than get in a boat and go cruising? True, you are right about that!
Nice westerly blowing, broad reach to a nice lake.I'm going swimming, you go back to work for your status symbols.
How long am I going for ?Indefinitely

That's all very nice, but Roger was pointing me towards a book weighing up differences between steel/wood/glass (Bruce has written a number of books however and I'm not buying them all). Your reply made no sense to either his post or my original question and your subsequent response appears even more off tangent.

Do you use the same design ethic with your boats?

 

[Wansworth]

In his book "The Complete Guide to Metal Boats " he said skegs should be designed to fall of if they hit anything.
A friend, circumnavigating in a Roberts, said he saw sister ship to his , hauled out in Brisbane ,which had sunk from a skeg failure.
He welded a couple of diagonal flat bars to his before continuing on. His next boat was one of my designs. In Sidney BC I saw several hauled out ,with the flat bars added .

Best way to get adequate structural strength for a high aspect skeg, is to run it right thru to the cockpit sole, for two point support, the hull and the cockpit

That sounds a good idea

 

[Wansworth]

That's all very nice, but Roger was pointing me towards a book weighing up differences between steel/wood/glass (Bruce has written a number of books however and I'm not buying them all). Your reply made no sense to either his post or my original question and your subsequent response appears even more off tangent.

Do you use the same design ethic with your boats?

One of the expenses of boatbuilding is paying for space and from experience steel can be built in a field without heating or cover if need by whilst certainly in the UK climate other construction methods,wood,grp need cover and heat

 

[DownWest]

Bob Perry, who seems to be Brent's object of hate, as he frequently runs him down as a con artist and rip off merchant, was given a lifetime award last year for his work with boat design. A lot of people agreed with the award, judging by the reaction in the forums.
No doubt Brent will have some sort of comment about acolytes gathering around false prophets etc, but it does make you think.

Perry was also one of a few respected NAs who offered to help Brent with calculations, which might just have some bearing on his constant criticism of Perry.
Biting the hand that....

Oh, Brent, any comment on the stories about the wobbly keels that resulted because you refused to use cross framing?
Nothing like trying out your ideas on clients, when you haven't thought them through.

While I am here...

'We colonials find hilarious , your British , passive , fatalist, groveling to an arbitrary , childish, class pecking order'

You are in a very small minority of Canadians on that.
As for being elitist etc. I am certainly not rich, I build my own boats, because I enjoy the process. OK, they are not big cruising boats, but what I enjoy using.
And for your constant rabbiting on about how cheap you can do it. I find my builds come in at less than a third of others to the same designs. Why? Not because I use recycled or scrap materials, but because I make everything myself. Buy rough lumber and size it. Make the sails (from new cloth..) Fabricate the fittings and build the trailers.
Does that make me better than another person who buys in the fittings, sails and sized lumber? Of course not, it just the way I enjoy doing it.

The question about Ted Brewer was a comparison of building materials (try reading posts before hitting the keys..)
But, naturally, you have to imply he designs unsafe steel boats. Part of your relentless self-promotion in every post.

 

[rogerthebodger]

He's written a few, which one am I looking for?

Sorry I had to find my copy.



This is a scan of the page about selecting materials.

My copy was last updated in 1994 and as technology in welding steel and aluminium has significantly improved there may be some differences today

When I started in as an apprentice in 1962 in steel fabrication the only welding was stick welding and only 230mm angle grinders. No cutting discs. To cut shapes in stainless we used a stick welder on high amperage cleaning up with grinders.

Now we have MIG MAG TIG inverter welders. Plasma cutting small and big angle grinders with a range of grinding and cutting disks for all kinds of material

 

[JumbleDuck]

Far more reliable info ,than from those who have never owned an origami boat, and have never seen one ...

Because there are hardly any around ...

 

[JumbleDuck]

I am the only one posting ways to make cruising more affordable , while my critics constantly throw disinformation roadblocks in the way of low income cruisers , and trash anything which is not expensive .

As far as I know, most of us here sail durable second hand boats.

People I built boats for provide the space ,tools , and tradesmen's wages, along with any work they can do, saving a fortune over those who expect them to pay someone else for what they can do themselves ...

Only if they value their own time very little. Sure, building boats is fun and tacking together sheets of scrap steel is probably a cheap way of making a hull, if you are not worried about stability and sailing qualities. But if what someone wants to do is go sailing in something which sails better than the Kon-Tiki (and therefore doesn't hit every reef it comes near), it's much better to buy a boat designed and built by people who know what they are doing. Second hand, if cheap matters.

In Canada ,below a certain income level, no income taxes are payable.

The Canadian government thinks you pay 15% federal income tax on the first $47,630 (https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-ag...dividuals-current-previous-years.html#federal) while provinical income tax varies from 4% on the first $45,414 (Nunavut) to 10.8% on the first $32,670 (Manitoba). Whatever you're paying your accountants, they're worth half.

In the UK we pay no income tax on the first £12,500 ($22,000).

 

[Brent Swain]

Promise?

Lots of computer access in these beautiful islands.
It shouldn't surprise anyone that elitists cant stand someone giving more affordable options for low income cruisers.
I'm the only one doing that here.

 

[Brent Swain]

Here is a report on boat speed for one of my 36 footers: from a guy who has been cruising the South Pacific in one since the 90s.

As long as I wasn't hard on the wind or on a dead run, I used to sail at 6 knots in 12 knots of wind on my BS 36 foot single keeler. I struggle to do that now with my tired out old mainsail.

I have twice gone over 1000 miles in just over 6 days. This was largely close or beam reaching using a huge over-lapping genoa. This genoa was great on a reach and the reason for some fast passages but very poor to windward. On one of the passages I left a day later but still caught up and passed a 65 footer and beat him to port by night. On the other passage, I was close hauled in a sloppy sea and passed a Fantasia 35 in 12 hours despite them leaving two days before me. The fat and heavy Fantasia was just hobby horsing and couldn't make any progress against the trade wind slop. This has convinced more than anything of the need of having a boat that cut through seas and sail to windward.

I have hit 8 to 9 knots under sail many times. The max speed I have ever seen is 11 knots but I had some waves and probably some current helping me. Those ideal conditions only lasted a few hours.

If I can generalize, I normally sail up with the typically heavily loaded 42 to 45 foot cruisers. I am loaded down too with a 90 gallon fuel tank and a 120 gallon water tank and plenty of books so I think this is excellent. The wind is never like you read about in the books. It seems all I get is either El-Nino or La-Nina. I think anyone who thinks it is all downwind has never been offshore in the Pacific. When I sailed from Canada to Fiji in 96-97, I had only 8 days with the wind aft of the beam. I am still waiting for a classic downwind trip in the trades to see what she can really do.

I think performance under sail has a lot to do with how well a boat steers. The windvane self steering gear keeps the boat on a rail, with the tell-tales hardly flickering. I use the windvane most of the time but sometimes I find that a electronic pilot does better. A windvane may not hold you to the wind but if the wind is variable it is better to just go straight at a slower speed and follow a compass rather than follow every wind shift and add to the distance sailed. I met one guy who arrived in tears in Samoa.....his boat yawed 20 to 30 degrees all across the Pacific. He had almost totally given up on his windvane and was mentally and physically exhausted from having to handsteer.

Definitely now slow!
Here is the stability curve for my 36, done by a computer whizz ,and former skeptic.



Tax exempt is roughly the same here ,$25,000, poverty for those living ashore, more than I know how to spend , living with minimal expenses.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Sorry I had to find my copy.

---

Cheers for that, very interesting.

It shouldn't surprise anyone that elitists cant stand someone giving more affordable options for low income cruisers.

But you're not doing that, you're just poncing around about how... and I quote...

Definitely now slow!

Here is a report on boat speed for one of my 36 footers:

Here is the stability curve for my 36,

Frankly speaking, no one on a budget cares whether it's ever going to reach 8 Knots or whether it's the most stable boat on the market. They care about whether they can afford to buy one, afford to maintain it and not capsize (hopefully) when sailing (I'm on such a budget, this is what I care about). It's like how people on a budget will typically buy a Ford. It's cheap, it does the job, it's not particularly comfortable and they're certainly not the fastest on the road and they're relatively cheap to maintain... as compared to your Toyota Prius.

Now better question, can I scull it? Particularly when the wind disappears because you can be damned sure I'm not buying an engine.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Now better question, can I scull it? Particularly when the wind disappears because you can be damned sure I'm not buying an engine.

In that case it's perhaps even more important for you to buy a design with sailing qualities which allow it to be steered past islands and reefs.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Here is a report on boat speed for one of my 36 footers: from a guy who has been cruising the South Pacific in one since the 90s.

As long as I wasn't hard on the wind or on a dead run, I used to sail at 6 knots in 12 knots of wind on my BS 36 foot single keeler. I struggle to do that now with my tired out old mainsail.

I have twice gone over 1000 miles in just over 6 days. This was largely close or beam reaching using a huge over-lapping genoa. This genoa was great on a reach and the reason for some fast passages but very poor to windward. On one of the passages I left a day later but still caught up and passed a 65 footer and beat him to port by night. On the other passage, I was close hauled in a sloppy sea and passed a Fantasia 35 in 12 hours despite them leaving two days before me. The fat and heavy Fantasia was just hobby horsing and couldn't make any progress against the trade wind slop. This has convinced more than anything of the need of having a boat that cut through seas and sail to windward.

I have hit 8 to 9 knots under sail many times. The max speed I have ever seen is 11 knots but I had some waves and probably some current helping me. Those ideal conditions only lasted a few hours.

If I can generalize, I normally sail up with the typically heavily loaded 42 to 45 foot cruisers. I am loaded down too with a 90 gallon fuel tank and a 120 gallon water tank and plenty of books so I think this is excellent. The wind is never like you read about in the books. It seems all I get is either El-Nino or La-Nina. I think anyone who thinks it is all downwind has never been offshore in the Pacific. When I sailed from Canada to Fiji in 96-97, I had only 8 days with the wind aft of the beam. I am still waiting for a classic downwind trip in the trades to see what she can really do.

I think performance under sail has a lot to do with how well a boat steers. The windvane self steering gear keeps the boat on a rail, with the tell-tales hardly flickering. I use the windvane most of the time but sometimes I find that a electronic pilot does better. A windvane may not hold you to the wind but if the wind is variable it is better to just go straight at a slower speed and follow a compass rather than follow every wind shift and add to the distance sailed. I met one guy who arrived in tears in Samoa.....his boat yawed 20 to 30 degrees all across the Pacific. He had almost totally given up on his windvane and was mentally and physically exhausted from having to handsteer.

Definitely now slow!
Here is the stability curve for my 36, done by a computer whizz ,and former skeptic.

View attachment 77798View attachment 77798

Tax exempt is roughly the same here ,$25,000, poverty for those living ashore, more than I know how to spend , living with minimal expenses.

Figures ‘calculated ‘ assuming a sealed steel mast.

Firstly, who puts a steel mast on a small sailing yacht? I’ve had steel masts on MUCH larger vessels (but they weren’t sealed...). A steel mast gives you weight in exactly the place you don’t want it. And if one is to believe those incredulous graphs they’re also giving buoyancy when inverting.

Furthermore sealed heavy steel masts mean all your halyards are run outside the mast and that does nothing for your sailing performance, yet in the next breath Brent asks people to believe his boat is fast.

Once upon a time I was anxious about allowing Brent the oxygen of publicity for promoting his business. (I’m still not convinced it isn’t breaking forum rules and etiquette) but as time goes on I’m more and more sure that his phantasmagorical claims are being revealed for the fantasies that they are. Like all such things, there’s a little bit of truth occasionally and one of two good ideas, but on the whole I suspect most people can see his belligerent assertions for what they are.