Steelboats

[NormanS]

John Morris, now that you've come back to this thread, how about answering the question posed in #1202? Please.

 

[john_morris_uk]

John Morris, now that you've come back to this thread, how about answering the question posed in #1202? Please.

I think the answer was obvious.

Brent is continuously throwing in phrases such as ‘plastic boat’ when he knows full well that the strength of a composite boat comes from the fibres of glass or carbon in the laminate. Or he refers to ‘marina queens’ when he refers to anyone who doesn’t live aboard and cruise remote areas, or used phrases such as ‘most people who leave their boats neglected in marinas’. I was trying to be humorous and play the same game. My reference was to steel (it ALWAYS rusts eventually) not specifically to origami boats.

I’ve sailed several steel boats and rust is a constant problem. It’s not unique to origami building methods. If you build in steel then expect to deal with rust. There are ways to alleviate the problem (Brent will claim his are the best) but you can’t ever eliminate rust.

If you are seriously considering an origami design, remember that the options for the final hull shape you can achieve are limited by the technique and method. (Despite what Brent says).

You also have to deal with a variety of other issues (compass etc). Non insurmountable but go in with your eyes open and with a reality check.

Steel is a good material but it isn’t the best for very small boats (too heavy) and it has its limitations that need to be recognised. It’s certainty not the panacea Brent claims it to be.

His scaremongering about durability has been shown to be nonsense but that doesn’t suit his agenda so he trots out the same old stories and false claims.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Once upon a time I was anxious about allowing Brent the oxygen of publicity for promoting his business. (I’m still not convinced it isn’t breaking forum rules and etiquette) but as time goes on I’m more and more sure that his phantasmagorical claims are being revealed for the fantasies that they are. Like all such things, there’s a little bit of truth occasionally and one of two good ideas, but on the whole I suspect most people can see his belligerent assertions for what they are.

The point of debating, they say, is not to convince your opponent but to convince the audience. Mr Swain is probably the most powerful advocate for GRP boats and professional designers I have ever seen.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The point of debating, they say, is not to convince your opponent but to convince the audience. Mr Swain is probably the most powerful advocate for GRP boats and professional designers I have ever seen.

Exactly the conclusion that I have come to.

I get a tiny bit anxious sometimes about the wide eyed wannabes who have dreams being sold down the river. I'm all for dreams and encouraging sailing away on the cheap, but I worry about some who shouldn't be taken in by anything approaching charlatanesqueness. (Good word huh?)

 

[NormanS]

I think the answer was obvious.

Brent is continuously throwing in phrases such as ‘plastic boat’ when he knows full well that the strength of a composite boat comes from the fibres of glass or carbon in the laminate or ‘marina queens’ when he refers to anyone who doesn’t live aboard and cruise remote areas, or ‘most people who leave their boats neglected in marinas’. My reference was to steel (it ALWAYS rusts eventually) not specifically to origami boats.

I’ve sailed several steel boats and rust is a constant problem. It’s not unique to origami building methods. If you build in steel then expect to deal with rust. There are ways to alleviate the problem (Brent will claim his are the best) but you can’t ever eliminate rust.

If you are seriously considering an origami design, remember that the options for the final hull shape you can achieve is limited by the technique and method. (Despite what Brent says).

You also have to deal with a variety of other issues (compass etc). Non insurmountable but go in with your eyes open and with a reality check.

Steel is a good material but it isn’t the best for very small boats (too heavy) and it has its limitations that need to be recognised. It’s certainty not the panacea Brent claims it to be.

His scaremongering about durability has been shown to be nonsense but that doesn’t suit his agenda so he trots out the same old stories and false claims.

OK, so your statement, "origami (rusty)" was at the same level as Brent's "marina queens" and "plastic". and yet you condemn him!

I have no intention of building a steel boat by origami or any other method. I have built a steel yacht (a 35ft Alan Pape design), using fairly conventional methods, so I have actual hands-on experience of building in steel, which so many commenting on this thread patently do not. Most of my boat building and sailing experience has been with wooden boats, but I have been sailing in my present GRP yacht for the past thirteen years.

Since I do have actual practical experience of building in steel, I questioned your suggestion that origami = rust, to find out if you had found any evidence to justify your statement. I guess you were merely being pejorative.

 

[john_morris_uk]

OK, so your statement, "origami (rusty)" was at the same level as Brent's "marina queens" and "plastic". and yet you condemn him!

I have no intention of building a steel boat by origami or any other method. I have built a steel yacht (a 35ft Alan Pape design), using fairly conventional methods, so I have actual hands-on experience of building in steel, which so many commenting on this thread patently do not. Most of my boat building and sailing experience has been with wooden boats, but I have been sailing in my present GRP yacht for the past thirteen years.

Since I do have actual practical experience of building in steel, I questioned your suggestion that origami = rust, to find out if you had found any evidence to justify your statement. I guess you were merely being pejorative.

I've gone back and edited my reply. Let me explain again: I was poking fun at Brent's use of language. I'm not really suggesting that there's any real link between origami and rust (except the use of steel). in exactly the same way that there's no link between being a queen (whatever that means) and keeping your boat in a marina, nor any link between the accepted use of the word 'plastic' and the composite glass reinforced with polyester and other resin structures that many boats are made of.

I condemn Brent because he makes phantasmagorical claims that he can't substantiate. I've made no such claims. Therein lies the difference.

 

[Wansworth]

By the way the Dutch build little rowing skiffs in steel,but they keep their boatsin good condition and it’s fresh water.

 

[JumbleDuck]

... charlatanesqueness. (Good word huh?)

Splendid word. I may steal it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

OK, so your statement, "origami (rusty)" was at the same level as Brent's "marina queens" and "plastic".

As I recall, the phrase was "origami (rusty) steel", and it was clear to me that the "rusty" was intended to apply to the "steel".

 

[Brent Swain]

Here is a report on boat speed for one of my 36 footers: from a guy who has been cruising the South Pacific in one since the 90s.

As long as I wasn't hard on the wind or on a dead run, I used to sail at 6 knots in 12 knots of wind on my BS 36 foot single keeler. I struggle to do that now with my tired out old mainsail.

I have twice gone over 1000 miles in just over 6 days. This was largely close or beam reaching using a huge over-lapping genoa. This genoa was great on a reach and the reason for some fast passages but very poor to windward. On one of the passages I left a day later but still caught up and passed a 65 footer and beat him to port by night. On the other passage, I was close hauled in a sloppy sea and passed a Fantasia 35 in 12 hours despite them leaving two days before me. The fat and heavy Fantasia was just hobby horsing and couldn't make any progress against the trade wind slop. This has convinced more than anything of the need of having a boat that cut through seas and sail to windward.

I have hit 8 to 9 knots under sail many times. The max speed I have ever seen is 11 knots but I had some waves and probably some current helping me. Those ideal conditions only lasted a few hours.

If I can generalize, I normally sail up with the typically heavily loaded 42 to 45 foot cruisers. I am loaded down too with a 90 gallon fuel tank and a 120 gallon water tank and plenty of books so I think this is excellent. The wind is never like you read about in the books. It seems all I get is either El-Nino or La-Nina. I think anyone who thinks it is all downwind has never been offshore in the Pacific. When I sailed from Canada to Fiji in 96-97, I had only 8 days with the wind aft of the beam. I am still waiting for a classic downwind trip in the trades to see what she can really do.

I think performance under sail has a lot to do with how well a boat steers. The windvane self steering gear keeps the boat on a rail, with the tell-tales hardly flickering. I use the windvane most of the time but sometimes I find that a electronic pilot does better. A windvane may not hold you to the wind but if the wind is variable it is better to just go straight at a slower speed and follow a compass rather than follow every wind shift and add to the distance sailed. I met one guy who arrived in tears in Samoa.....his boat yawed 20 to 30 degrees all across the Pacific. He had almost totally given up on his windvane and was mentally and physically exhausted from having to handsteer.


Figures ‘calculated ‘ assuming a sealed steel mast.

Firstly, who puts a steel mast on a small sailing yacht? I’ve had steel masts on MUCH larger vessels (but they weren’t sealed...). A steel mast gives you weight in exactly the place you don’t want it. And if one is to believe those incredulous graphs they’re also giving buoyancy when inverting.

Furthermore sealed heavy steel masts mean all your halyards are run outside the mast and that does nothing for your sailing performance, yet in the next breath Brent asks people to believe his boat is fast.

Once upon a time I was anxious about allowing Brent the oxygen of publicity for promoting his business. (I’m still not convinced it isn’t breaking forum rules and etiquette) but as time goes on I’m more and more sure that his phantasmagorical claims are being revealed for the fantasies that they are. Like all such things, there’s a little bit of truth occasionally and one of two good ideas, but on the whole I suspect most people can see his belligerent assertions for what they are.

Several friends have changed from a steel mast to an aluminium mast on 36 footers ,and have noticed very little difference.Andy Deering an Alaskan on a 36 (Indefatigable) sailed several years across the Pacific to Australia and back with a steel mast , 6 inch OD tubing with an 11 guage wall thickness. Then he found a deal on an aluminium mast ,and made the switch, before heading off for several more years of Pacific cruising. He said he noticed no difference.
Bob Perry mentioned designing a super light, high tech carbon fibre mast for a 35 footer. After the guy circled Vancouver Island , Bob asked him if it made any difference .
"None that I noticed " was the reply.

In 1982 a client bought an aluminium mast extrusion for $6,000 CDN. Steel was around $300. Now with so many boats being scraped , cheap aluminium masts are far more comon around here, so now make sense.

 

[myquest]

In 1982 a client bought an aluminium mast extrusion for $6,000 CDN. Steel was around $300. Now with so many boats being scraped , cheap aluminium masts are far more comon around here, so now make sense.

Not sure I see the sense if there is no advantage.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Not sure I see the sense if there is no advantage.

If there was no advantage to an alloy mast cruising boats would all have steel masts. Builders don't build buy and fit more expensive alloy masts without good reason.

Two anecdotal stories about 'I didn't notice any difference' to the boats performance means diddly squat.

The numbers don't lie. How many racing boats have steel masts? How many commercially built cruisers have steel masts? (You've probably worked out that the answer is a number that's big and fat and round.)

Steel masts make no sense from a stability point of view or a performance point of view. Sealed masts might help the 'stability curve calculations' but do nothing for a boats sailing performance as all the halyards with their extra drag have to be routed outside the mast. Not critical on the average slow cruising boat, but when someone makes claims about their boats wonderful sailing performance, then it's another nail in the coffin of credibility AFAIC.

The extra weight aloft is exactly in the wrong place for performance too. More credibility lost...

 

[Resolution]

Splendid word. I may steal it.

Surely, in the context of this thread, this should read "I may steel it".
(Groans, runs for cover.)

 

[dom]

...How many racing boats have steel masts? How many commercially built cruisers have steel masts? (You've probably worked out that the answer is a number that's big and fat and round.)

Steel masts make no sense from a stability point of view or a performance point of view. Sealed masts might help the 'stability curve calculations' but do nothing for a boats sailing performance as all the halyards with their extra drag have to be routed outside the mast....

+1, mast weight of course being the reason people pay a hefty premium for carbon. Moreover, Brent's stability claim would not pass any recognised test as masts are often ripped off during B2 capsizes when AVS becomes relevant. Coupled with Brent's defective loading calcs, the inherent risk of these boats is becoming apparent to all.

As many have long suspected, Brent's vessels increasingly appear to be dangerous, non-certificated DIY bodges. Sad really, for humans are generally a cooperative bunch and he might have fared better if he'd listened and cooperated, as opposed to single-handedly trying to rubbish the entire boat building and naval architecture industries!

 

[rogerthebodger]

If there was no advantage to an alloy mast cruising boats would all have steel masts. Builders don't build buy and fit more expensive alloy masts without good reason.

Two anecdotal stories about 'I didn't notice any difference' to the boats performance means diddly squat.

The numbers don't lie. How many racing boats have steel masts? How many commercially built cruisers have steel masts? (You've probably worked out that the answer is a number that's big and fat and round.)

Steel masts make no sense from a stability point of view or a performance point of view. Sealed masts might help the 'stability curve calculations' but do nothing for a boats sailing performance as all the halyards with their extra drag have to be routed outside the mast. Not critical on the average slow cruising boat, but when someone makes claims about their boats wonderful sailing performance, then it's another nail in the coffin of credibility AFAIC.

The extra weight aloft is exactly in the wrong place for performance too. More credibility lost...

John I am not defending Brent as there are many many ways to skin a cat and all boat building materials have there advantages and disadvantages. Steel has rust issues GRP is great for easy reproduction rom a mold one off with a frame and flat sheet construction sa son of the super yacht GRP boat builders do. GRP is also a relative low maintenance material favoured by a lot of people.

As you may know I have a steel boat with an aluminium mast as one came with my steel hull.

I did look at steel fabricated mast at one time mainly from the cost as I have the stills and equipment in steel fabrication.

The mast would be a ladder type fabrication using thin wall tube. Did not get to calculating the weights and as I mainly only cruise no racing performance was less important to me.

With the increase in the ease of aluminium welding this may be an option is the bost uilter has the skill, equipment and time.

In my younger days when DIY boat building was more prevalent that today fabricated steel was a low cost high time option like Brents approach less practised today. Times change and production techniques change/improve.

 

[john_morris_uk]

John I am not defending Brent as there are many many ways to skin a cat and all boat building materials have there advantages and disadvantages. Steel has rust issues GRP is great for easy reproduction rom a mold one off with a frame and flat sheet construction sa son of the super yacht GRP boat builders do. GRP is also a relative low maintenance material favoured by a lot of people.

As you may know I have a steel boat with an aluminium mast as one came with my steel hull.

I did look at steel fabricated mast at one time mainly from the cost as I have the stills and equipment in steel fabrication.

The mast would be a ladder type fabrication using thin wall tube. Did not get to calculating the weights and as I mainly only cruise no racing performance was less important to me.

With the increase in the ease of aluminium welding this may be an option is the bost uilter has the skill, equipment and time.

In my younger days when DIY boat building was more prevalent that today fabricated steel was a low cost high time option like Brents approach less practised today. Times change and production techniques change/improve.

No problem and I totally understand and agree with you.

 

[myquest]

If there was no advantage to an alloy mast cruising boats would all have steel masts. Builders don't build buy and fit more expensive alloy masts without good reason.

Two anecdotal stories about 'I didn't notice any difference' to the boats performance means diddly squat.

The numbers don't lie. How many racing boats have steel masts? How many commercially built cruisers have steel masts? (You've probably worked out that the answer is a number that's big and fat and round.)

Steel masts make no sense from a stability point of view or a performance point of view. Sealed masts might help the 'stability curve calculations' but do nothing for a boats sailing performance as all the halyards with their extra drag have to be routed outside the mast. Not critical on the average slow cruising boat, but when someone makes claims about their boats wonderful sailing performance, then it's another nail in the coffin of credibility AFAIC.

The extra weight aloft is exactly in the wrong place for performance too. More credibility lost...

The comment was aimed at the Pacific Ocean wanderer. I know you can see the folly in his argument!

 

[Wansworth]

On a 40 footer a cheap mast could well be a solid spar especially if it is gaff rigged so a steel thin walled tube could well be a cheap possibility for a mast readily available and the tangs can be welded on directly

 

[Brent Swain]

Not sure I see the sense if there is no advantage.

Used masts come fully detailed, with all the fittings ,and sometimes with the rigging. Sometimes free, often cheaper than the steel alone, let alone the time.

 

[Brent Swain]

On a 40 footer a cheap mast could well be a solid spar especially if it is gaff rigged so a steel thin walled tube could well be a cheap possibility for a mast readily available and the tangs can be welded on directly

Moitessier used a telephone pole, far heavier than a steel mast . Made excellent daily runs , with no serious stability problems, and no rollovers. Cruising World, in the Dec 89 issue, showed tank tests which proved that a heavier mast reduces the odds of a rollover. Inertia. The wave passes before the mast can be set in motion enough.
The ability to weld tangs on with 100% strength is a huge advantage in a steel mast.