Steelboats

[Brent Swain]

+1, mast weight of course being the reason people pay a hefty premium for carbon. Moreover, Brent's stability claim would not pass any recognised test as masts are often ripped off during B2 capsizes when AVS becomes relevant. Coupled with Brent's defective loading calcs, the inherent risk of these boats is becoming apparent to all.

As many have long suspected, Brent's vessels increasingly appear to be dangerous, non-certificated DIY bodges. Sad really, for humans are generally a cooperative bunch and he might have fared better if he'd listened and cooperated, as opposed to single-handedly trying to rubbish the entire boat building and naval architecture industries!

I feel much safer in a design which has covered over 350,000 miles of open ocean without a single serious structural failure of any kind ,one which has survived 16 days pounding in big surf on a Baja beach , being pulled of thru 12 ft surf , pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef , blowing ashore in a hurricane in the Mozambique channel , a single season passage thru the NW passage , than boats which have repeatedly broke up quickly in similar conditions, or far lighter conditions. If God, Jesus, Mohamed, Allah and Buda, all said the latter are stronger ,and safer, and deserve approval , more than the former, it would remain just as big a pile of crap.
Anyone who "certifies" wooden boats as "safe", but not boats which have the track record of steel boats, is absolutely full of crap, not worth their pay, and definitely not worth taking seriously. They are definitely out of touch with reality.
Definition;
"Elephant"
A mouse designed by engineers
If you want to see first hand, the difference weight makes, take a fat guy sailing in the average cruising 35 footer, in a 20 knot wind. Then drop him off ,and sail some more . You wont notice the difference, contrary to theory.
Reality often contradicts theory. Yes the numbers do lie. Try it .
The numbers definitely do lie, when they say sailing a quarter knot faster, while taking a year longer to pay for it, while the guy who went cheapo, gets a year head start ,will get the faster guy there sooner ,at a quarter knot more boat speed .

For the average cruising boat , carbon like a lot of go fast gear, is a suckers game. That is why they advocate it, to empty cruisers' pockets, into their own.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Used masts come fully detailed, with all the fittings ,and sometimes with the rigging. Sometimes free, often cheaper than the steel alone, let alone the time.

This reminds me of an American book about off-grid living I read which said that you could light your house with candles from thrift stores. The problem with doing that - or with using second-hand masts and winches - is that while it undoubtedly has advantages for the individual, it doesn't scale to society as a whole, because someone has to buy the candles, masts and winches new. It's an individualist fantasy of sustainability.

See also: travellers who reject society but use roads.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I feel much safer in a design which has covered over 350,000 miles of open ocean without a single serious structural failure of any kind ,one which has survived 16 days pounding in big surf on a Baja beach , being pulled of thru 12 ft surf , pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef , blowing ashore in a hurricane in the Mozambique channel....

I'd prefer one which sails well enough to avoid these hazards. Rafts are easy.

 

[Wansworth]

This reminds me of an American book about off-grid living I read which said that you could light your house with candles from thrift stores. The problem with doing that - or with using second-hand masts and winches - is that while it undoubtedly has advantages for the individual, it doesn't scale to society as a whole, because someone has to buy the candles, masts and winches new. It's an individualist fantasy of sustainability.

See also: travellers who reject society but use roads.

I don’t think off grid people are trying to convert everybody,or people. Who build steel boats,there are downsides to living on the periphery of society so don’t get so worked up ,they are recycling stuff us urbanites throw away

 

[JumbleDuck]

I don’t think off grid people are trying to convert everybody,or people. Who build steel boats,there are downsides to living on the periphery of society so don’t get so worked up ,they are recycling stuff us urbanites throw away

I think both groups have two subgroups: those who wish to live with less dependence on society and those who think society should live with less dependence on non-renewable resources. The former don't do any harm and the latter are where we all need to go.

Which raises the question: environmentally is it better to built a steel boat which depends on coal for the material will in due course rust to bits, or a GRP boat which will last very much longer but requires even more fossil fuel for the material? Demand for 20+ year old boat designs is slow, so perhaps the one which has disintegrated by then is a better bet for the world.

 

[Wansworth]

Now if you could build a boat using Eucalyptus we could get rid of the wretched trees growing like mad here in Galicia!

 

[NotBirdseye]

Now if you could build a boat using Eucalyptus we could get rid of the wretched trees growing like mad here in Galicia!

Shouldn't be hard. Dry it out, grind it up add in a little something extra (epoxy if How to Sail Oceans is anything to go by!), squish it (I don't mean pat it down, I mean hydraulic pressure squishing) into sheets/mould to desired form. It'll be roughly as strong as fibreglass.

What you will find is that your boat smells heavily of Eucalyptus while in sunlight, so there's that (paint it possibly?).

Edit

Actually if you let it grow a lot, you can probably use traditional techniques, just the slats will be a lot thinner.

 

[barnacle32]

Please, please, please do not let this thread end until we discuss the the ice breaking ability of the BS36!

 

[Brent Swain]

This reminds me of an American book about off-grid living I read which said that you could light your house with candles from thrift stores. The problem with doing that - or with using second-hand masts and winches - is that while it undoubtedly has advantages for the individual, it doesn't scale to society as a whole, because someone has to buy the candles, masts and winches new. It's an individualist fantasy of sustainability.

See also: travellers who reject society but use roads.

Using what is already there is far more environmentally sustainable than wasting and rebuilding everything from scratch, which is as environmentally unsustainable as infinite growth on a finite planet. Anyone who doesn't get that, is either insane , or an economist.
Is the economy our servant , or are we it's servants?
Go ahead and be a slave to squanderism, the moral obligation to squander as much as possible. Id rather spend my limited time enjoying life, on far less materialism, in exchange for far more free time, and a clear conscience, when it comes to the environment, and the future of future generations.

 

[Brent Swain]

I'd prefer one which sails well enough to avoid these hazards. Rafts are easy.

160 miles a day is no raft. 15 days to Hawaii is no raft. 18 days from Hawaii to BC is no raft .

 

[Brent Swain]

Aluminium is 3 times the cost of steel, and is still hard to weld outside in any wind .
Steel corrodes more above the waterline, where you can see it and deal with it easily. Aluminium corrodes far less above the waterline ,but is more prone to corrosion below the waterline, and does so much faster when it happens, taking the owner by surprise, often when it is well advanced.

I have used aluminium on steel boats for cabin tops ,no problem .

People building steel boats with traditional methods, say origami would have saved them a year off their project.
More like "low cost, low time building." I don't think two could lay up a plastic hull in much under 2 days.
It IS the improvement in techniques you speak of, by a wide margin.
However, any suggestion of doing it any different from 1950s methods, gets immediately attacked and piled on, while they attack any suggestion of the advantages of trying anything differently , even that which is undeniably well proven, over decades ,and hundreds of thousands of trouble free ocean miles, as is so clearly demonstrated here.

 

[Brent Swain]

Sorry I had to find my copy.

View attachment 77775

This is a scan of the page about selecting materials.

My copy was last updated in 1994 and as technology in welding steel and aluminium has significantly improved there may be some differences today

When I started in as an apprentice in 1962 in steel fabrication the only welding was stick welding and only 230mm angle grinders. No cutting discs. To cut shapes in stainless we used a stick welder on high amperage cleaning up with grinders.

Now we have MIG MAG TIG inverter welders. Plasma cutting small and big angle grinders with a range of grinding and cutting disks for all kinds of material

Yes , I remember when the thinnest cutting discs were 1/8th inch, 3.2mm, slow as a bureaucrats brain. I have use the poor mans plasma ,1/8th inch 6011 at 225 amps.Lots of grinding after. We timed a comparison between $5 cutting discs and $1 each discs . No difference . We compared a cutting disc with a cutting torch , time wise . No difference on 3/16th plate.
The latest boats, we have cut out with circular skill saw blades. Like cutting plywood . Nice, machined like edges .

With CNC ,someone good with computers , could have all the plates pre-cut at the supplier . That would enable one to tack together hull and decks in a day or two .
For mass production, interiors can also be pre-cut that way.

 

[JumbleDuck]

160 miles a day is no raft. 15 days to Hawaii is no raft. 18 days from Hawaii to BC is no raft .

Yeah, sure. Why do they keep running into reefs and islands, then?

 

[rotrax]

Yeah, sure. Why do they keep running into reefs and islands, then?

Like I keep saying, if a Brent Swain steel boat is so good-and can run off 160 nm days-why have we not all got one?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Like I keep saying, if a Brent Swain steel boat is so good-and can run off 160 nm days-why have we not all got one?

Worldwide conspiracy by big pharma, big oil, the Illuminati and the Henley-upon-Thames branch of the Women's Institute. Or maybe it's the stone cutters ...

 

[Brent Swain]

This reminds me of an American book about off-grid living I read which said that you could light your house with candles from thrift stores. The problem with doing that - or with using second-hand masts and winches - is that while it undoubtedly has advantages for the individual, it doesn't scale to society as a whole, because someone has to buy the candles, masts and winches new. It's an individualist fantasy of sustainability.

See also: travellers who reject society but use roads.

Are you suggesting that require less energy to melt down an aluminium mast, and make a new one out of the material , than to just use one which already exists?
Ya sure!

 

[rotrax]

Are you suggesting that require less energy to melt down an aluminium mast, and make a new one out of the material , than to just use one which already exists?
Ya sure!

Your reply shows clearly the limitations and shallowness of your intellect.

What the post quite clearly says is that many of your ideas will benifit individuals trying to lower their individual carbon footprint but cannot concievably be the answer for the worlds population at large.

You are an unrepentant hippocrite Brent. You censure the civilisation that gives you your cheap lifestyle.

Sure, you can get discarded but still useful boat parts for nothing or very cheaply.

But you consistantly miss the point that advanced civilisation and high energy process made them in the first place.

The old saying 'Dont look a gift horse in the mouth' comes to mind here............................

 

[JumbleDuck]

Are you suggesting that require less energy to melt down an aluminium mast, and make a new one out of the material , than to just use one which already exists?

No.

 

[Brent Swain]

Here is the post on vacu- blasing I mentioned, on facebook.

A while back there was a discussion about sandblasting and a lot of whining about tools expense, don't have enough money, too much mess and yada yada. So, I went to the hardware store, spent less than $10 (literally) and in 2 hours made this suction retrieval system for sandblasting. you can see the deck where it took less than literally 30 seconds to blast that with the bell on the deck.

As is typical of these systems the air needs to be dialed down a bit so it doesn't launch and knock your teeth out. BUT, it does work. A different skirt around the outside like a brush would make it easier to slide. The bolts around the outside center the nozzle and determine the depth.

The light is there to show what a low cost blasting light looks like. Normally, this is mounted on the hose and directed at the area of blasting. I have found that too much light creates glare and you get tired much faster from it. This is a simple LED yard light, 12 volt with the stake cut off. I cut plastic circles that go under the ring and protect the glass....they are disposable as well. Sandblast lights run around $300-400. This was less that $20 and it works really well. before Led I used the 12 volt halogen version but they got hot...they still worked and the air cooled them but now the plastic covers aren't heat affected.

My sandblaster remote control, removed for this install, is also homemade and less than $100 for the valve, control and hose. (Damn, am I starting to sound like Brent now?....sigh, guess I've gone to the dark side....lol (it's a joke and in fact Brent's comment inspired me to do this).
No photo description available.

Too bad the photos didn't post ,they were some good photos. You can find them on facebook ,metal boat society. Should save people a lot of work on inside cleaning.

 

[Brent Swain]

Your reply shows clearly the limitations and shallowness of your intellect.

What the post quite clearly says is that many of your ideas will benifit individuals trying to lower their individual carbon footprint but cannot concievably be the answer for the worlds population at large.

You are an unrepentant hippocrite Brent. You censure the civilisation that gives you your cheap lifestyle.

Sure, you can get discarded but still useful boat parts for nothing or very cheaply.

But you consistantly miss the point that advanced civilisation and high energy process made them in the first place.

The old saying 'Dont look a gift horse in the mouth' comes to mind here............................

Your suggestion being that, I should have spent my life working for money I don't need, to buy things I don't need ,to impress people I don't like, increasing my environmental impact exponentially, and, doing like so many, preaching against environmental destruction, to be less hippocritical , like you?
Ya sure ! Sounds like more fun that cruising full time!
You should be spending your time on a "Better homes and gardens"site instead of here, where people dream of the cruising life, if you hate the idea of the cruising life so much.

I always got a kick out of programs to junk old cars and replace them with more "environmentally friendly" new ones, to reduce pollution, completely ignoring the pollution involved in building so many new cars.
Once one moves aboard , the reduction in environmental impact, from that point on, adds up to exponentially more than that caused by the building of the boat, including the manufacture of the materials
Many look forward to not needing a car any more, which drastically reduces their environmental foot print even further.
How many cars have you gone thru in a lifetime? How much steel manufacturing did that involve? More than one boat? How much fossil fuel does your lifestyle use in a month? And you call me a hippocrite?
I have never owned a car; never wanted to.
Population? I haven't added a single person to the worlds population ( not that I'm aware of)