Steelboats

[Brent Swain]

I'm afraid that boat builders and designers are rather more savvy than you give them credit for. A boat builder pays people to work and if they could get away with paying fewer people and building boats faster that were as good as you claim, then they would be buying your plans and building them. There's no grand conspiracy among boat builders and the yachting industry. It's dog eat dog in many ways and if someone thought that could turn a penny making origami boats out of steel and then selling them, then they would be building them. To suggest otherwise is delusional.

First of all, you are trying to shift the argument. I pointed out that composite boats sail millions of miles compared to the 350,000 miles that you claim as 'mostly trouble free sailing' for your designs and builds and self builds. It's a fact and shows your so called argument for what it is - a nonsense and of very little value. I have no idea whether more BS origami boats sail oceans than composite boats. You may well be right, but again it 'proves' nothing. You're selling to a niche clientele who have a stated aim of sailing across oceans. By your own admission, people don't build BS origami designs to sit in marinas. You sell them as the last answer in ocean cruising on a shoestring and if you could somehow show that more steel origami boats sail across oceans (proportionately) than composite boats, all it would show is that most people who buy boats don't sail across oceans and more people who build steel origami boats do. The '350,00 mainly trouble free sailing' doesn't actually prove that your designs are safe. GZ curves and stability data (without the false figures produced by sealed steel masts!) might give some ides of what is what. A critical look at all aspects of your design might help too. Some polar diagrams of predicted boat speed and VMG vs wind angle would be interesting, but I doubt they exist.

And please don't start harping on and quoting 'fast passages' that have been made. I quoted a couple to you from Sigma 33's sailing across the Atlantic and admitted immediately that they mean diddly squat.

Your claim that there is a conspiracy by boat builders and the yachting industry and 'yacht sailsmen and women' against your designs is more about your self justification as to why everyone can't see your point of view.

You have given zero proof that your composite boats have ever crossed any ocean. Zero proof of your claimed daily runs and speed. I'm not saying they haven't ,only that you have given zero proof that any have.
For 95% of cruisers ,any such proof simply doesn't exist.

Several steel boat builders locally have gone bankrupt , while I continued on for decades, by making them affordable, for people who could never afford a new, custom steel boat , built using their 1950's methods.
When I retired, I turned down several, in one year .

With the bankers breathing down their necks, and the inside unpainted ,most commercial builders just sprayfoamed over rusty steel or primer , rather than epoxy them properly, causing them to rust out inside , in a decade or two.
All that mattered at the moment was getting the banker off their backs.
Backyard builders tend to do things more properly.

Several people around here, who have bought stock plastic boats , are now saying they want steel boats.

 

[rotrax]

Several people around here, who have bought stock plastic boats , are now saying they want steel boats.

Better get your gear out, roll your sleeves up and get stuck in then Brent. A business oppertunity.

Might stop you boring the arse off us here....................................

 

[Baggywrinkle]

This is how I imagine a typical steel home-build goes. One that doesn't use detailed plans, or any stability or load calculations, but relies solely on the intuition and life experience of the builder ...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHi7SUCIOXqubV9DYXqEwfQ

.... he started in November 2016, his last video was uploaded on 6 May 2019 .... so he's been at it for 2,5 years and it's a long way from being in the water.

So for your entertainment, the last one in the series ...

I'm not one to judge, but they are a very "interesting" set of videos to say the least.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You have given zero proof that your composite boats have ever crossed any ocean. Zero proof of your claimed daily runs and speed. I'm not saying they haven't ,only that you have given zero proof that any have.
For 95% of cruisers ,any such proof simply doesn't exist. So why do you keep trotting out the same argument in favour of your boats hoping it's going to convince people of your wonderful designs and builds?

Several steel boat builders locally have gone bankrupt , while I continued on for decades, by making them affordable, for people who could never afford a new, custom steel boat , built using their 1950's methods.
When I retired, I turned down several, in one year .

With the bankers breathing down their necks, and the inside unpainted ,most commercial builders just sprayfoamed over rusty steel or primer , rather than epoxy them properly, causing them to rust out inside , in a decade or two.
All that mattered at the moment was getting the banker off their backs. This is completely made up nonsense IMHO. 'Most builders'? You write as if one is supposed to assume that this applies to all steel boat builders. If your designs and build techniques were so wonderful then there would be builders using them and producing origami boats. There's a reason why they don't and it's not because they're conspiring against you.
Backyard builders tend to do things more properly. Not always in my experience. I've spent a considerable chunk of my life rectifying bodges done by people who didn't know what they were doing. Some of the things we see in your boats wouldn't get past a surveyor if the boat was intended for commercial use. (If past experience is anything to go by, your answer is to suggest that the surveyor and commercial standards are all in a conspiracy and they don't know what they are talking about. I'll leave others to decide who is closer to the truth).

Several people around here, who have bought stock plastic boats , are now saying they want steel boats.Some people I know who have had steel boats are mighty relieved to now have a composite boat. So what. All boats are a design and build compromise. Some people changed their minds about what they wanted. Hence my 'so what'?

At the end of the day, I think most people reading this thread and others on these forums will realise that whilst you have a couple of good ideas and it appears you may have some practical experience, people dreaming of selling up and going ocean sailing shouldn't be taken in by your flannel. The more times you respond with the same old tired arguments, the more people will realise just how nonsensical most of it is. There's just enough truth to be dangerous, and that's the worrying bit for me.

 

[robertj]

One point there John there are quite a few yards that supply origami steel for assembly

 

[john_morris_uk]

One point there John there are quite a few yards that supply origami steel for assembly

So there’s money to be made by selling steel stock to dreamers? Tell me something I didn’t know.. It doesn’t alter my basic premise one iota that if the design and concept was half as good as BS claims, there’d be at least one or two boat yards building and selling them.

 

[NormanS]

I don't think your argument is peculiar to steel. Surely all boat builders are supplying dreamers. If we weren't dreamers, we wouldn't have boats. Without dreams and aspirations we would still be back in the Stone Age.

 

[DownWest]

One point there John there are quite a few yards that supply origami steel for assembly

While the origami system saves a bit of time on the hull, it doesn't change the reality that home building a complete boat is going to take quite some time.
Elsewhere, a professional steel boatbuilder questioned Brent's timescales. He had built a few V.de.Stadt 34ft hard chine designs. Reckoned it was three weeks work to get to the stage that Brent says he did in a week or so with his methods. Not a lot of difference in the timescale of building a boat of that size. What takes time is the internal work and general fitting out. Apparently some of Brent's clients don't do internal fit out, just get the basics and set off. Fine for them, but most people don't want to live like that.
I know someone who built one of the VdS 24s, easy system to put the hull plates together and a recognised design with all that entails.
I know which I would go for.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

This is how I imagine a typical steel home-build goes. One that doesn't use detailed plans, or any stability or load calculations, but relies solely on the intuition and life experience of the builder ...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHi7SUCIOXqubV9DYXqEwfQ

Top Bodging.

.... he started in November 2016, his last video was uploaded on 6 May 2019 .... so he's been at it for 2,5 years and it's a long way from being in the water.

So for your entertainment, the last one in the series ...

I'm not one to judge, but they are a very "interesting" set of videos to say the least.

 

[JumbleDuck]

While the origami system saves a bit of time on the hull, it doesn't change the reality that home building a complete boat is going to take quite some time.

'Twas always thus. Thinks of all those huge 70s ferrocement hulls built but never fitted out by people who checked the cost of rebar and concrete but not of winches and sails.

A while ago I tried to work out the likely costs of the hull materials - fibre and resin - for a ~10m Bavaria. As I recall, it came to about £5k.

 

[robertj]

So there’s money to be made by selling steel stock to dreamers? Tell me something I didn’t know.. It doesn’t alter my basic premise one iota that if the design and concept was half as good as BS claims, there’d be at least one or two boat yards building and selling them.

there are!!

 

[john_morris_uk]

there are!!

Examples please?

We’re talking about proper production boatyards not one man dreamers like BS making one for a paying mate occasionally when he feels like it.

 

[rotrax]

Examples please?

We’re talking about proper production boatyards not one man dreamers like BS making one for a paying mate occasionally when he feels like it.

Plenty of self assembly alloy sheet kits available for home weld and build in NZ, all trailer fishing/sport boats.

Cant tell if they are origami or not from the ads in NZ's equivilent to ebay, Trade Me.

Plenty of steel boat experience in the Evans Bay Motorboat and Yact Club in Welly.

None of the current or past owners feel the same way that BS does though.

My mate Errol has a beauty-narrow gutted, long, fast and easily managed solo. Extremley well built and it appears Errol, by the same painstaking experience as BS, has arrived at a similar philosophy regarding long term corrosion proofing.

He does not rate origami as it has too many compromises for design.

His boat has been alongside in the Marina for over 12 months while Errol has been working in the far North of NZ building a house. It still looks great, no rust streaks-or none when I left 2 months ago.

I can see where BS is coming from. If you need what he can fix you up with, thats fine, you get a strong and, if the right steps are taken during build, durable vessel.

But, cant-or dont want to-do it yourself, probably as or more expensive than a ready made yacht.

Which, as everybody except BS knows, are very capable vessels also.

So, you pays your money and make your choice.

Most dont choose an origami steel yacht.

And there is the rub.......................

 

[john_morris_uk]

....So, you pays your money and make your choice.

Most dont choose an origami steel yacht.

And there is the rub.......................

Which is more or less exactly the other side of the point I was making.

 

[Brent Swain]

Plenty of self assembly alloy sheet kits available for home weld and build in NZ, all trailer fishing/sport boats.

Cant tell if they are origami or not from the ads in NZ's equivilent to ebay, Trade Me.

Plenty of steel boat experience in the Evans Bay Motorboat and Yact Club in Welly.

None of the current or past owners feel the same way that BS does though.

My mate Errol has a beauty-narrow gutted, long, fast and easily managed solo. Extremley well built and it appears Errol, by the same painstaking experience as BS, has arrived at a similar philosophy regarding long term corrosion proofing.

He does not rate origami as it has too many compromises for design.

His boat has been alongside in the Marina for over 12 months while Errol has been working in the far North of NZ building a house. It still looks great, no rust streaks-or none when I left 2 months ago.

I can see where BS is coming from. If you need what he can fix you up with, thats fine, you get a strong and, if the right steps are taken during build, durable vessel.

But, cant-or dont want to-do it yourself, probably as or more expensive than a ready made yacht.

Which, as everybody except BS knows, are very capable vessels also.

So, you pays your money and make your choice.

Most dont choose an origami steel yacht.

And there is the rub.......................

What compromises? Be more specific. Generalizations are meaningless, without specifics.

Yes, used boats are far cheaper ,if you are willing to settle for plastic. Some are even free, around here.
People cant give them away . Most of my clients started out with one, and want nothing to do with them any more.
Good steel boats are far rarer, if you are determined to have the comfort and safety of a steel boat, and not willing to settle for stock plastic. A new stock plastic boat would be exponentially more expensive than a new origami boat. You don't get enough material for 36 ft hull, decks ,cabin, cockpit , wheelhouse, keel ,rudder and skeg for under $10 K.
Many want a custom boat of all new material, which you don't get in a used boat.
Most people buy whatever gets the most promotion. If that were not the case, they wouldn't spend $billions on advertising.
New from Waterline Yachts, is $250 K for a bare hull and decks ,not the $17 K of an origami boat.

 

[Brent Swain]

Examples please?

We’re talking about proper production boatyards not one man dreamers like BS making one for a paying mate occasionally when he feels like it.

Production boat yards still have to pay the rent and property taxes, whether they are busy or not. They have to pass that cost on to the next customer who walks in the door, after months of no activity ,and still costing them money . Hire a pro to help you build a backyard boat, incurs no such added expenses.
One client paid $20 a month, with the use of a shop, and lots of equipment included. Try run a production business on that amount.
Some have borrowed a welder from an uncle and a torch from a grandpa. Some borrow a building space from an inlaw, or family. Backyard builders have the time to cruise scrapyards and dock sales, avoiding the huge prices of new gear and materials, something production builders cant do. No comparison in finished costs .
I have always worked for tradesmen's wages, a fraction the cost of shop rates. No personal overhead means I take more home, and the client pays less.
If you buy new on a loan ,the interest can double the price. Back yard means pay as you go , debt and interest free.

 

[Brent Swain]

Mine have a full set of detail drawings and stability calculations.

Yes, when they vary from them , they definitely take longer.
After sailing one of my 36 footers from BC to New Zealand and back, skipper Mike Loucks said

"I have seen people make many changes and variations from the plans on these boats , but I have never seen one, not one, which was an improvement, in any way ."

Voice of experience talking there.

 

[JumbleDuck]

"I have seen people make many changes and variations from the plans on these boats , but I have never seen one, not one, which was an improvement, in any way ."

The phrase we use over here is "You can't polish a turd".

 

[rotrax]

Be more specific. Generalizations are meaningless, without specifics.

So say's the master of exactly that!

The truism 'There are none so sanctimonious as reformed reprobates' fits perfectly here Brent.

There are shapes and sizes that will not work in origami Brent.

That has been pointed out to you before without challenge.

Errols boat is, IIRC, a 55 footer.

 

[rotrax]

What compromises? Be more specific. Generalizations are meaningless, without specifics.

Yes, used boats are far cheaper ,if you are willing to settle for plastic. Some are even free, around here.
People cant give them away . Most of my clients started out with one, and want nothing to do with them any more.
Good steel boats are far rarer, if you are determined to have the comfort and safety of a steel boat, and not willing to settle for stock plastic. A new stock plastic boat would be exponentially more expensive than a new origami boat. You don't get enough material for 36 ft hull, decks ,cabin, cockpit , wheelhouse, keel ,rudder and skeg for under $10 K.
Many want a custom boat of all new material, which you don't get in a used boat.
Most people buy whatever gets the most promotion. If that were not the case, they wouldn't spend $billions on advertising.
New from Waterline Yachts, is $250 K for a bare hull and decks ,not the $17 K of an origami boat.

Fundemental major flaws in your argument Brent.

The guy's you say are pissed with ' Stock plastic boats ' are buying at the bottom end of the market. They are buying old knackered ones.

The other major flaw is that you are comparing apples to pears.

Very few GRP boats are home built, lots of, by comparison, steel boats are home built. It was possible to buy a GRP hull and superstructure for home completion, but not so common now.

Many UK yards offer 'sailaway' narrowboat packages at reduced cost-about 40K Stirling.

You state ' Many want a custom boat of all new material'

Really? Many-or just a few that you deal with from time to time.

Again you state ' A new stock plastic boat would be exponentialy more expensive than a new origami boat '

Not if a yard built it, Brent, which is why you are comparing apples to pears.

Cost out a yard to build either and your figures are pie in the sky.