South of France Options

[Portofino]

They must be

They must be pushing up their prices in line with Port Vauban then. I guess if all the major marinas on the Côte d’Azur increase their prices together they can make those prices stick

Its gonna be a un level playing field , not quite as simple as watching your competition.

Think I have mentioned this before briefly at the end of the leases Paris ( the state actually own the coasts ) has slapped in development amount going forward.

This amount is based basically based on what needs building / updating , or should have been done .
So the ones that did the least redevelopment / upgrading while they had the concession , for what ever reason now have been forced to spend .

I saw the list a while back .La Napoules is tiny virtually none existent because we have been working with the mayor and upgrading for over a decade . In return have been given added years 10 to 2029 end of .Covered by berthholders paying higher maintenance fees pro rata berth size .

Perspective wise here are some ball park numbers .
Port Vauban Figure is waaaaaay OTT @ circa €120 M over i can,t remember the exact time scale .
This €120 M has to be found from the berth holders and the Mayors office , works / upgrades planned are huge - sailing school , hotel complex , pool(s) , shopping mall , more marina restaurants etc etc .The whole area is going to get a make over .
The arguments are the concessionaires should have done something , anything during there tenure . They did knack all , well that what the powers that be in Paris think .Now it’s payback time and the berth holders are sitting ducks

Others range from sensible when amortisation amongst berthholders figures of €5M to 35 M as a comparison for infrastructure improvements .

Not sure what BsM s was mid to low table iirc , but there is some , certainly was not in the upper quartile .

It all depends how much they spent ( via berth holders ) during there tenure a complicated formula, part mayors involvement, part regional maritime council , part Paris the gov .
Then whats perceived by the above needs doing .

Huge variations thus the normal economic berth fees modal is distorted.

Explains what you see right now .
Could be a race to the top perversely with PV setting the marker ? Dunno depends on demand .

Previously the concessions were run as none for profit societies by berthholders for berthholders.
Now as the concessions end they drop into the locsl gov - mayors offices clutches , with all that that entails .

 

[DAW]

Not sure I agree with the comments about lack of investment everywhere, or that the challenges in Port Vauban exist for all the ports in the SoF. Also not sure La Napoule should be used as a model for the other ports as it's at the end of the main strip of the Cote d'Azur and its location, amenities and customer base are somewhat different.

The marina in Beaulieu is well maintained and has had a reasonable level of investment over the last 10 years. The company which operated the concession was consistently profitable has considerable reserves and prior to the decision to transition to a rental model it made several proposals to Nice Metropole to invest in and redevelop the marina, all of which were rejected.

Nice Metropole's plans for redevelopment affect only the terrace of shops and restaurants and this will be funded separately through rent increases which take effect on 1 July and from premiums for new leases. They are looking for external investment partners, but this project is separate from the marina which will remain under local authority control for now. There are some plans to reconfigure the marina, but these mostly relate to increasing the width of some of the larger berths to reflect the broader beam of modern boats and upgrading the shore power, etc. ... so nothing significant.

Nice Metropole now controls the majority of the marinas between Monaco and Antibes. In this area, you have two main types of owners ... "local" people who own smaller boats for day-use (mostly French with some Italian, often with local businesses, political influence and/or a vote for local politicians), and Monaco residents and expats who tend to have larger boats which they visit and use only during the summer months. There is no space in the Monaco marinas, and San Remo and Ventimiglia are too far away and in the wrong direction for the most popular anchorages. Consequently, all of the overflow goes into Cap d'Ail, Beaulieu, etc.

For me, the increase in rentals is just supply and demand and not linked to investment requirements ... you have a local authority that wants to keep rates low for local residents and has a captive audience of wealthy owners of larger boats who want to be in and around Monaco. The factors motivating Nice Metropole are not the same as a privately owned operator of a concession. I know some people say they will kill the golden goose and drive people to leave for Spain, Croatia, etc. but I don't see much evidence of this in practice ... lots of people grumble, but very few people leave and for every one that does, there are usually two on the waiting list.

I'm not against Ventimiglia, San Remo, etc. but like most other owners in SoF we tend to go to three locations ... Mala/St Jean Cap Ferrat/Villefranche, Iles de Lerins/Bay of Cannes and St Tropez/Porquerolles. If you do the calculation on additional fuels costs alone, its much cheaper to pay the higher rental in France than to move to Italy ... and that's before you take into account the hassle of getting to the marina and the additional 1-2 hours of cruising to get to/from the anchorages. I could move from Beaulieu to Antibes or La Napoule and save some money, but then every time I want to use the boat I have to drive for at least an hour in each direction (assuming there's no traffic in and around Antibes or Cannes, which in the summer never happens). Like I say ... its supply and demand!

 

[Chris H]

Not sure I agree either, cap ferrat has spent a lot of money upgrading the port and their berth costs are still high, not to mention the extorsion for service charge.

 

[westernman]

Not sure I agree either, cap ferrat has spent a lot of money upgrading the port and their berth costs are still high, not to mention the extorsion for service charge.

Rental costs get lower the further you go towards Spain. Until you get to Spain when they jump up again.

 

[Portofino]

Yes I said BsM was in the lower end of the spectrum .I remember looking for MC Anderson .Can’t remember. St Jean but we have been in there many times and I think it’s just about maxed out development wise with its mermaid and sea shell ornaments etc and row of shops etc .
.I did have the figures somewhere but not right now, as bobbing about @ anchor .



Just out lining the concept and the particular PV issue with its massive amount to find .
Sure they all will work on finding outside investment .But remember the local eq of rate payers on councils will steer away from lumping a lot on the locals or risking them picking up the tab and raiding local services budgets .
Of course supply + demand will dictate how much they will squeeze the berth holders .
We will just have to wait and see how it all pans out as year by year they drop into the mayors office control .

Would have thought Covids increased boat and boaty hols demand , so as DAW says if you sail away they will fill your spot immediately at the higher price you refused to pay .Time will tell .

Its filled up here in Loano with mostly locals .There are many closer to Fr so this place will not figure in the re location plans of any disgruntled CdA boaters .
We are here for same reason as DAW it’s the shortest drive for us albeit from CH .
Currently renting my berth in la Nap out , will probably sell it while it’s got 8 yrs left ?

 

[volvopaul]

Reading all this makes me ,
A. Want another boat .
B. In the sunshine .
c. Sounds cheaper than being in the uk south coast marinas.

 

[Portofino]

Reading all this makes me ,
A. Want another boat .
B. In the sunshine .
c. Sounds cheaper than being in the uk south coast marinas.

Even cheaper in Italy .
Check out marinas within easy drive of Pisa .
I rent my 15 m berth out in lap Nap CdA 40 mins from NCE for €17 K / pa yet pay about €7 k in Liguria for arguably a better Marina .
More teaser pics




Bump, t into my maintenance guy who took it to the ship yard there and back for its annual , enquired how much I owe him ?
Also can he replace all 7 fender socks .Wife insisted we replace a few torn ones , but do them all so all colour sync d.
He came round with his son and replaced them all , fitted etc .
Told me the ship yard was two guys 1 hr each way so 4 hrs labour .
That bill was €130 for the socks + €60 for the shift . With the usual discount offered here .Say no more .
Just not worth me traveling down when the labour rate is so low here .

 

[westernman]

Even cheaper in Italy .
Check out marinas within easy drive of Pisa .
I rent my 15 m berth out in lap Nap CdA 40 mins from NCE for €17 K / pa yet pay about €7 k in Liguria for arguably a better Marina .

I paid €5 K/pa for 20m LOA here on the French Med coast.

 

[ds797]

I paid €5 K/pa for 20m LOA here on the French Med coast.

View attachment 117852

And where is that?

Thanks

 

[Portofino]

I paid €5 K/pa for 20m LOA here on the French Med coast.

View attachment 117852

Correct me if i am wrong but I think the you “get what you pay for “ .
Liguria as intimated by DAW is no where as glamorous shore side or sheltered / interesting boaty wise as arguably the world epicentre of super yachting the CdA .We spent 15 years in the usual haunts there .

How ever we are up to 7 laps of the boat swimming today and warm sea is warm sea Wether it’s off Cap Ferrat or Alassio .
Boat knows no difference .
Sandy bottoms here no anchor restrictions and no jelly fish FWIW ?


Genoa airport is less than an 1 hr and NCE less than 2 . Turin / Milan similiar.
How connected are you ?

 

[markc]

And where is that?

Thanks

Somewhere windy?

 

[julians]

Prices are ROM

10M €5100
12M €8250
14M €12500
The vessel length is taken from the registration documents and is enforced so at 12.1M you are on a 14M berth.

Those prices look very reasonable compared to mallorca

 

[westernman]

Somewhere windy?

Yes.

 

[westernman]

Correct me if i am wrong but I think the you “get what you pay for “ .
Liguria as intimated by DAW is no where as glamorous shore side or sheltered / interesting boaty wise as arguably the world epicentre of super yachting the CdA .We spent 15 years in the usual haunts there .

How ever we are up to 7 laps of the boat swimming today and warm sea is warm sea Wether it’s off Cap Ferrat or Alassio .
Boat knows no difference .
Sandy bottoms here no anchor restrictions and no jelly fish FWIW ?


Genoa airport is less than an 1 hr and NCE less than 2 . Turin / Milan similiar.
How connected are you ?

The port where I used to be where my boat is in the photo, is less than one hour from two airports with cheap flights to the UK and less than 90mins from three other airports.

A further hint, one of those airports is where Colonel Gaddafi's plane (an Airbus 340 with a bling bling interior) was kept for a long time. I think it is still there being repaired. Presumably some one has bought it now.

 

[westernman]

Correct me if i am wrong but I think the you “get what you pay for “ .

Depends what you are after.

Comfortable afternoon sail to some interesting anchorages. Good restaurants within walking distance. Wind. Sandy beaches. Some places with very good fishing and snorkeling. Nudist beaches. Possibility to sail into the protected area of the port (useful if the wind kicks up too much, you can faff around with the sails in flat calm protected water). 2 minutes walk to the superette. Free parking. Free leccy. Free water. And a very wide berth (useful when you have a long keeler ;-)

But architecture around the port itself is very naf. And the shower block is a bit basic (no music in the showers). But I would have thought that the shower block is of no interest to gin palace owners.

 

[DAW]

Correct me if i am wrong but I think the you “get what you pay for “ .
Liguria as intimated by DAW is no where as glamorous shore side or sheltered / interesting boaty wise as arguably the world epicentre of super yachting the CdA .We spent 15 years in the usual haunts there .

In my original post, I wasn't suggesting that SoF is better or more glamorous than anywhere else. Although it's an amazing area, I know from personal experience that many of the places Porto is referring to in Italy are just as great to visit and the whole cultural and boating experience in Italy is amazing. Likewise for Spain ... some of my most enjoyable boating experiences have been cruising around Ibiza and Majorca. My point was that between Monaco and Antibes you have a sizeable boating community for whom location is everything and cost is largely irrelevant ... which creates strong demand for berths and keeps prices for everything boat-related at elevated levels.

 

[DAW]

Not sure thats correct. If you based yourself somewhere near Ventimiglia thats roughly 30nm away from the usual SoF hotspots. Say you made the trip 10 times a year thats 600nm of extra cruising at say 0.5nmpg = 5400 litres of fuel which @ €1.40/litre = €7560

I have been quoted €38000 pa to berth in Port Vauban next year but I know I can berth in one of the Italian marinas along the coast for €20-25000 pa or less. And my maintenance costs in one of those Italian marinas would probably be less than the rip off maintenance costs in Antibes as well

Yes I'd much rather stay in Antibes but I can't justify it on financial grounds

Everyone is different and it depends on how you use your boat. For me the calculation was as follows ...

The season is from May to September ... about 18 weeks per year
On average, the boat gets used twice per week (sometimes much more, sometimes less) ... so 36 trips
Ventimiglia to Beaulieu is 12nm and about 40 minutes at a cruising speed of 20 knots ... 50 hours of additional use
At 20 knots we burn 200-220 litres per hour ... 10,000 litres of fuel
Diesel is currently €1.70/litre ... €17,000 extra cost

In Beaulieu, if you want the maintenance done at lower cost by Italian contractors from Ventimiglia, San Remo, etc. that's entirely possible. They will come to you.

More importantly for me ... I can leave Monaco, drive in the right direction to my boat and be at anchor off St Jean Cap Ferrat in about 40 minutes. The return time including tying up, etc. is about an hour. This makes impromptu afternoon/evening trips to watch the sunset before dinner totally possible. In comparison, Ventimiglia adds at least an hour to the journey in each direction, which makes every outing feel like something that has to be planned well in advance.

Obviously, if you use the boat less, stay on board more, go cruising more often, etc. then it could make sense financially. However, we live here all summer and want to be able to look out of the window, check the sea conditions and say "lets go to the boat" without having to plan. Also for us, the most enjoyable part is chilling out on the boat at anchor, not the cruising there, so anything that makes this easier means we will use the boat more often.

 

[Truro Ex Pat]

Just to add i am based up in Genoa and I pay very little for an annual berth and make 2 summer trips of 3 weeks at a time and even with the increased fuel i save £8,000+ a year at least and its a great trip down the coast and I can stop off anywhere I like during the trip.
Italy is best option for us as its how we use the boat and I cant see anyone paying the PV prices?