Small boat heavy weather

[geem]

All a downwind sleigh ride, try it t'other way
[/QUOTE]
I know Nico pretty well. We spent several weeks with him kitesurfing and drinking beer. His boat was really tiny. Only 5 1/2 feet larger than my dinghy. He couldn't climb the mast as the boat would topple over. It is more like a dinghy.
Credit to him for sailing the trip back. He had a few bad days where he was going backwards. No progress could be made. I watched him on his tracker most of the way back.
The boat had large windows for its size and they leaked. They were quite thin perspex. The whole boat was really not that seaworthy but he made it. He now plans to sail around the world none stop in a class 40

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Isn't it better to do it the fun way?

My brother and I once changed our weekend plans to sail to Cherbourg overnight on a Friday after work specifically to pick up a SW gale to surf back. I can't say I'd have been grinning as much going the other way. (I couldn't *look* upwind, let alone sail upwind.)

This thread seems an odd collection of contradictions.
1) It's wrong to deliberately go out when it's windy.
2) But if you do go it's so utterly devoid of challenge that only upwind counts.
3) Although F8 is dangerously irresponsible, F7 isn't windy enough.
4) Although going out deliberately in a planned and controlled way is wrong, getting your weather wrong to the extent that you find yourself randomly out in a gale you completely failed to anticipate is commendable.
5) People who have never chosen to sail in gales are the perfect people to offer their wisdom on sailing in gales to people who frequently choose to sail in gales.

The OP wasn't about any of those it was about sailing in F7 in a boat of about 19 to 22 foot. As with all threads it has drifted somewhat to encompass some of the things you note and Wansworth with his love of small simple boats pointed out that an 18ft boat had sailed across the Atlantic ( smaller ones have done it and further) I pointed out that it was a relatively easy passage but the other way would not be so pleasant although it's been done.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Iv'e got some video on YouTube of me beating into 35 gusting 40 for about an hour. She plods along at 2.5-3kts. I don't like it and don't plan for it but I go sailing for days at a time so sometimes you live with what you get.View attachment 173734

And the boat is?

 

[Hermit]

As many have said, the point is not about wind speed but sea state. Beaufort 7 does not equate to a Sea State 7.

​

World Meteorological Organization sea state code:

• 0 Calm (glassy) 0 m
• 1 Calm (rippled) 0 to 0.1 m
• 2 Smooth (wavelets) 0.1 to 0.5 m
• 3 Slight 0.5 to 1.25 m
• 4 Moderate 1.25 to 2.5 m
• 5 Rough 2.5 to 4 m
• 6 Very rough 4 to 6 m
• 7 High 6 to 9 m
• 8 Very high 9 to 14 m
• 9 Phenomenal Over 14 m

In open water, a Beaufort F7 is likely to produce a SS 5 to 6. A SS 7 in a 7m boat would, in many cases, cause the boat to roll or pitchpole with a waveheight longer than the vessel. Oh, and it is very rare to get these sorts of sea in an enclosed area such as the English Channel.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

And the boat is?

A Twister. 21.5ft water line 28ft overall

 

[Fr J Hackett]

A Twister. 21.5ft water line 28ft overall

Which is a different boat than the OP was talking of and a very capable one.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

As many have said, the point is not about wind speed but sea state. Beaufort 7 does not equate to a Sea State 7.

​

World Meteorological Organization sea state code:

• 0 Calm (glassy) 0 m
• 1 Calm (rippled) 0 to 0.1 m
• 2 Smooth (wavelets) 0.1 to 0.5 m
• 3 Slight 0.5 to 1.25 m
• 4 Moderate 1.25 to 2.5 m
• 5 Rough 2.5 to 4 m
• 6 Very rough 4 to 6 m
• 7 High 6 to 9 m
• 8 Very high 9 to 14 m
• 9 Phenomenal Over 14 m

In open water, a Beaufort F7 is likely to produce a SS 5 to 6. A SS 7 in a 7m boat would, in many cases, cause the boat to roll or pitchpole with a waveheight longer than the vessel. Oh, and it is very rare to get these sorts of sea in an enclosed area such as the English Channel.

See post #60

 

[capnsensible]

Too many years ago, I used to go over to StVaast or Cherbourg for the weekend in a friend's Spring 25. We were, even then, fairly experienced sailors and viewed heavy airs as an exciting challenge. Including whizzing back in all sorts of crap weather in order to turn to at work, 0800 Monday morning. It was a blast.

If he were to offer that to me now, however, 'sod off' would be my answer.

Probably.......

 

[LittleSister]

I sailed a Hurley 22 for a few years years and found myself in F7 conditions sometimes, but very rarely by choice.
My experience was that the boat was fine and very seakindly for a small boat. Hurley's have a 50% ballast/displacement ratio and I had a triple reefed main and hank on storm jib. I could set a small amount of sail and just make ground to windward. Hurley's have crossed the Atlantic - look up the jester challenge etc.

Hurley 22s are great boats. I had one (long fin version, not bilge keel), and found it very reassuring for its size in rough conditions, and generally sailed nicely. I had lots of fun and adventures in mine. (Ian Anderson was better at designing hulls than interior layouts, though!)

However, I don't believe it's true that they have a 50% ballast ratio, despite that figure often being repeated. (And they'd probably sail like slugs if they did.) As I recall it was established convincingly (can't remember whether it was on here, or on the Hurley Owners website, or both) that figure was the result of a misreading of a weight figure on an old design drawing. I have a vague recollection it was actually about 35% or so (which was not at all atypical for boats of that type of that era).

Hurley 22s have not only crossed the Atlantic, a brace of them raced across the Atlantic. (As I wearily explained to my insurance company that refused to insure me for crossing the Channel. I changed insurer, and happily and safely (if very tired, too) crossed Devon to Brittany, and Devon to Scillies, etc. single-handed.) I seem to recall that the ones that raced across the Atlantic were special racing models with a taller rig (and additional ballast?), etc.

This thread seems an odd collection of contradictions.
1) It's wrong to deliberately go out when it's windy.
2) But if you do go it's so utterly devoid of challenge that only upwind counts.
3) Although F8 is dangerously irresponsible, F7 isn't windy enough.
4) Although going out deliberately in a planned and controlled way is wrong, getting your weather wrong to the extent that you find yourself randomly out in a gale you completely failed to anticipate is commendable.
5) People who have never chosen to sail in gales are the perfect people to offer their wisdom on sailing in gales to people who frequently choose to sail in gales.

I don't think that anyone has said any of those things.

 

[LittleSister]

If you want some inspiration, try NBJS with Erik Aanderaa in his Contessa 35 .....

If that's a Force 10 I'm a Dutchman. It's a clickbait title!

As the forum's resident sceptic , when that vid came out I pooh-poohed the claim that he was sailing in a Force 10 on several grounds - including that the weather report he quotes from the radar mast, which was on top of the mountain on the island and therefore stronger than at sea level by virtue of both altitude and topography, was only Force 9 - and some others agreed.

 

[Slowtack]

My old Achilles 24 was a great getuhome boat...

 

[westernman]

You won't go to windward under sail in a typical small yacht in a F7. At best you might zig zag back and forth but the leeway you have in those conditions will stop you making any net progress to windward.

Even with a typically sized engine, progress will be very slow, very wet and thoroughly unpleasant.

Much better to turn around and go somewhere else.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The worst I’ve been in was a line squall, mid channel. It came in from the SE, peaked very briefly at 50kn, but there was no time for a serious sea to build. The whole thing was over in 2 hours, quick build up, slower decline. We were aiming for Lymington, but ran off to Weymouth. We furled the jib, left a little corner of main up, it being a roller boom setup, F27 tri. Powerful sailor though the boat is, no way to make windward ground, or even reach. Just hand on for the ride. I’d have been able to steer into Portland if it was still blowing old boots, and round up in there in flat water, but it was down to 20-25kn, so went for much deserved fish and chips.

 

[samfieldhouse]

I am, very contentedly, a fair weather sailor. I'm confident my 28ft Cobra would be safe in the conditions the OP mentions, but I wouldn't knowingly set out in them.
As my dad told me while we were hacking in our Westerly Berwick through the Alderney Race in a F8 the crew give up before the boat.
I check the forecast, add at least an extra notch or 5kts to the Beaufort scale to whatever they say and if that's gusting more than 26kts I close the hatch and put the kettle on.
Work is stressful; life is stressful; I want my sailing to be fun and nice.

A peculiar addition I will add is that my tolerance is far higher if the sun is shining. 25kts in the sun is very different to 22kts in the driving rain.

 

[Daydream believer]

You won't go to windward under sail in a typical small yacht in a F7. At best you might zig zag back and forth but the leeway you have in those conditions will stop you making any net progress to windward.

Even with a typically sized engine, progress will be very slow, very wet and thoroughly unpleasant.

Much better to turn around and go somewhere else.

Depends what you mean by a small yacht. I would call a Stella a small yacht & races were often held in the Thames estuary in F7 & above. EAORA races being up to 100 miles & in the 70s forecasting was less accurate. Hence one could get caught out in some pretty tough conditions.
But once again it is down to design & the skill of the helm. Many small boats will go to windward provided they are properly set up. That does not mean baggy deep furled genoas. Baggy mainsails & slack rigging. Running rigging that defies proper trim. Sheets that are hard from UV & block & tackle set ups that have more friction than advantage due to poor blocks & old ropes. One cannot sail a boat properly that does not work smoothly.

 

[westernman]

Depends what you mean by a small yacht. I would call a Stella a small yacht & races were often held in the Thames estuary in F7 & above. EAORA races being up to 100 miles & in the 70s forecasting was less accurate. Hence one could get caught out in some pretty tough conditions.
But once again it is down to design & the skill of the helm. Many small boats will go to windward provided they are properly set up. That does not mean baggy deep furled genoas. Baggy mainsails & slack rigging. Running rigging that defies proper trim. Sheets that are hard from UV & block & tackle set ups that have more friction than advantage due to poor blocks & old ropes. One cannot sail a boat properly that does not work smoothly.

It won't go to windward in a 3m chop with 2s period as you get in the Med with a F7.

 

[geem]

The thing with waves is that it's not the size , it's the period of time between them. A 5m sea with 12 second interval is nothing compared to a 4.0m sea of 6s. One is like sailing in hills, the other is like sailing into concrete walls. Quoting F7 and F8 is all well and good but off the coast around the UK geography plays it's part. A F7 SW in the Bristol Channel really compresses the waves. It feels more like a F8. F7 in the Atlantic with a following sea isn't so bad. Going into it is another game. Wave period is everything. Sailing in the protected West Coast of Scotland, the same F7 could give you almost flat water.
The most wind speed we have ever encountered at sea was 54kts during a forecast F8, mid Atlantic. Not much fun but happy we weren't near land.
I would never want to be in an 18ft boat in those conditions and we were fortunate enough to be running with it.

 

[westernman]

The thing with waves is that it's not the size , it's the period of time between them. A 5m sea with 12 second interval is nothing compared to a 4.0m sea of 6s. One is like sailing in hills, the other is like sailing into concrete walls. Quoting F7 and F8 is all well and good but off the coast around the UK geography plays it's part. A F7 SW in the Bristol Channel really compresses the waves. It feels more like a F8. F7 in the Atlantic with a following sea isn't so bad. Going into it is another game. Wave period is everything. Sailing in the protected West Coast of Scotland, the same F7 could give you almost flat water.
The most wind speed we have ever encountered at sea was 54kts during a forecast F8, mid Atlantic. Not much fun but happy we weren't near land.
I would never want to be in an 18ft boat in those conditions and we were fortunate enough to be running with it.

The wave period is very very important.

5m waves in the pacific are almost imperceptible with a period of 20s or more. A F8 in the right direction is comfortable sailing. Just set the jib. Feel the acceleration as you come into the wind at the top of the wave, and slow down as you go into the trough.

 

[William_H]

It seems to me that a critcal ratio is that of the mass of the crew say 90kg versus the total mass of the boat. The lighter the boat the more inclined it is to follow the lumps of the sea but leaving the crew to try to manage this motion. So an 18ft boat would be much worse motion than a 22fter of perhaps double mass. Then a 27fter might be so much heavier again so better motion. Where does OP stop that is his question. I will avoid rough water. ol'will

 

[Daydream believer]

It won't go to windward in a 3m chop with 2s period as you get in the Med with a F7.

I have sailed in 3 M+ waves a number of times in the southern N sea.( certainly not out of choice). 4 Metres in the Alderney race can be close together & 3M off Barfleur & Cap Griz Nez, on the wrong day, at the wrong time, wrong place. But I cannot say that I have noticed the frequency to be as low as 2 seconds. (crest to crest) I am surprised that there would be room to get a 3M wave in the space.