Small boat heavy weather

[fredrussell]

The butt of many a forum joke, the Anderson 22 is a tough little boat by all accounts, with a heavily ballasted lifting keel that’ll allow you into the shallower bolt-holes.

 

[Stemar]

The problem isn't so much what the bost will handle as what you can handle. A small boat is far stronger in relation to its size than a ship; a sea state that could damage the kind of small monohull you describe would already have beaten you into submission!

However, a small boat will make little if any progress to windward in the conditions that a gale implies. The sea will a) stop it and b) knock the head off the wind. So, even if the boat is weatherly and fast in calmer waters, in a heavy sea she will make little if any ground to windward. And a boat that is weatherly and fast in calmer water might well be lighter and finer lined, and so less able to stand up to a big sea. The bottom line is that while the boat might survive merely being out in heavy weather, it might not be able to make progress to allow it to escape from a lee shore.

This is the issue.

We had a Snapdragon 24 for many years and loved her. I used to reckon that conditions that were bad enough to keep me from heading home in the Solent were vanishingly rare and never in my memory unforecast. I got a forecast wrong coming back from Weymouth once and when we were off - well off - St Albans Head, Bramblemet was registering a steady southerly 33 knots. The boat was fine with 1/3 genoa and two reefs in the main, but the crew wasn't. I don't think she forgiven me 15 years later!

We had a good strong inboard diesel, and we needed it to make any progress to windward. I think with an outboard, we could well have been in trouble.

 

[rotrax]

Many impressive voyages/passages have been made in small yachts, 'Tinkerbelle', with newspaperman Robert Manry on board crossed the Atlantic and was only 14 feet. His only previous sailing experience was on the Great Lakes. Ellen McArthur circumnavigated the UK in a Coribee.

Two totally different approaches to the job when you read the books.

The common theme was how uncomfortable it was when it got lively.

Smallest boat I have sailed in a bit of weather was a Hunter 27 OOD. That was pretty good, but I was a young man then. Well, fairly young!

If you are going ahead, as other posters have said, get one with a decent inboard diesel.

Good luck.

 

[Mudisox]

Shrimpers have stopped trading I think.

 

[jamie N]

35-40 kts. for 8 hours sailing from Wick to Inverness in my Folkboat, bang on the nose all the way with the boat crashing along at about 2.5kts, the forecast having predicted 15-20, moderate seas.
I was a bit 'disappointed', swearing to never ever sail again, as my life would revolve around gardening, in a greenhouse.

 

[wingcommander]

35-40 kts. for 8 hours sailing from Wick to Inverness in my Folkboat, bang on the nose all the way with the boat crashing along at about 2.5kts, the forecast having predicted 15-20, moderate seas.
I was a bit 'disappointed', swearing to never ever sail again, as my life would revolve around gardening, in a greenhouse.

Until next morning after a good night's rest. Open the hatch and all is well. Up withvthe anchor an onwards with a beaming smile. Great feeling

 

[Wansworth]

quite few yacht designs from Scandinavian countries, double enders and deep keels

 

[Supertramp]

I have had several 30knt experiences in exposed waters in my current 36ft/8.5t boat. As others have said, sea state is everything and the motion even on a relatively large boat is unpleasant. The big difference is the ability to make headway, stay on plan and to be able to navigate, eat and even sleep.

I grew up sailing on a Westerly 22 which was solid, conservative rig, decent displacement. There was never a question of the boat "breaking" although it was always worrying when the cabin windows were underwater (early hull windows?!). But making to windward in F5-6 was totally dependant on sea state and with an outboard, motoring into a steep sea was very slow as the propellor cavitated and lost power. But she looked after us.

Watch Sam Holmes sailing round Britain in a Hurley 22 on youtube. He does say after rounding the Mull of Kintyre that he wished he had a larger boat. But he shows well what can be taken on and accomplished in a small, well found boat.

 

[shanemax]

One knot of mean wind per foot of boat and the greater the percentage of weight below the water line the more the boat will handle rough weather. It is better to punch through waves than ride up and over them.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

One knot of mean wind per foot of boat and the greater the percentage of weight below the water line the more the boat will handle rough weather. It is better to punch through waves than ride up and over them.

35-40 kts. for 8 hours sailing from Wick to Inverness in my Folkboat, bang on the nose all the way with the boat crashing along at about 2.5kts, the forecast having predicted 15-20, moderate seas.
I was a bit 'disappointed', swearing to never ever sail again, as my life would revolve around gardening, in a greenhouse.

quite few yacht designs from Scandinavian countries, double enders and deep keels

That was my thinking - that of smaller boats, Folkboat types with deep, heavy keels might fare best. But as @jamie N says, it won't be comfortable and there will be a BIG performance hit.

 

[doug748]

Does anyone have any experience of small boats in heavy weather?
I am hoping to buy a sailing boat between 17 and 22 ft that can sail in at least F7, so that I don't have to scuttle for port early.
Particularly looking at boats like Shrimper 19s Hurley 22s, down to a Dockrell 17.
Also want to take the ground, so twin or lifting keels
I have long experience of bigger boats in heavy weather, but have no idea how small boats manage. Can anyone help?

You are probably aware of the Jester events but here is a link anyway:

What is the Jester Challenge?

Making contact with participants would be a good way forward. Zoidberg of this board would be a good contact, perhaps he will comment at some stage. I might aim a little bit bigger, perhaps 25 26 ft, there is a good range of options at that size.

.

 

[MisterBaxter]

Traditional hull shapes are better at holding on hove-to than modern shapes - a deep, slim, foil-section keel gives better lateral resistance compared to drag when moving than a long keel, but a long keel resists sideways motion better when stationary.
If I was seriously planning to end up at sea in bad weather in a small boat, I'd look for something that would heave to without losing much ground and with as comfortable a motion as could be expected. That implies deep, heavy, long keel, and a short-ish, heavy mast. Hence my earlier mention of a Heard 23.
But in reality, a good cruising boat in UK waters needn't ever get caught out too badly. Forecasts are reasonably reliable and harbours and anchorages are plentiful.
There's a nice Bowman 26 on Apollo Duck for around £6k that would do the job pretty well.

 

[Seastoke]

I don’t sail , but a true seaman would not head out in bad conditions through choice. Because there will be the one time it goes wrong .

 

[Stemar]

I don’t sail , but a true seaman would not head out in bad conditions through choice. Because there will be the one time it goes wrong .

Indeed. Sometimes we don't have a choice or, more accurately, we feel that we don't have a choice. "Having" to be at work on Monday morning has killed too many sailors.

 

[Billy no mates.]

I have had several 30knt experiences in exposed waters in my current 36ft/8.5t boat. As others have said, sea state is everything and the motion even on a relatively large boat is unpleasant. The big difference is the ability to make headway, stay on plan and to be able to navigate, eat and even sleep.

I grew up sailing on a Westerly 22 which was solid, conservative rig, decent displacement. There was never a question of the boat "breaking" although it was always worrying when the cabin windows were underwater (early hull windows?!). But making to windward in F5-6 was totally dependant on sea state and with an outboard, motoring into a steep sea was very slow as the propellor cavitated and lost power. But she looked after us.

Watch Sam Holmes sailing round Britain in a Hurley 22 on youtube. He does say after rounding the Mull of Kintyre that he wished he had a larger boat. But he shows well what can be taken on and accomplished in a small, well found boat.

His boat is for sale too,5k on apollo duck.

 

[DownWest]

I have a Kelt 620 here. Not used it in anything like stiff weather, but the French class it as 'B', unusual for a boat of this size. it has the shallow ballast keel with centre plate rather than the deeper fixed keel, which would be better (?) in a blow.
My bad weather (channel gales on the nose) was in slightly larger, 27ft, boats. But not fun.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Indeed. Sometimes we don't have a choice or, more accurately, we feel that we don't have a choice. "Having" to be at work on Monday morning has killed too many sailors.

I spent all my sailing life where I was faced with having to go when I would have preferred not to usually because work was a day or so away. There were a few occasions where I did make the decision to wait but the invariably meant going into the tail end of something rather than wait a little longer. I am glad of of the Vancouver 27 that served me very well on a number of those occasions. Later on with a larger V34 it didn't matter so much.

 

[geem]

Indeed. Sometimes we don't have a choice or, more accurately, we feel that we don't have a choice. "Having" to be at work on Monday morning has killed too many sailors.

I remember setting out from Milford Haven to sail to Padstow. We had F6 NW. The new forecast suggested the wind would drop to NW 4/5. About 15nm out we got a weather update for our area. NW7/8. By that point we definitely knew we had those conditions.
The point is, you don't necessarily make bad decisions but things can change and the weather doesn't always obey the forecast. We had a brisk sail down to Padstow. Even well reefed, we made far better time than expected. We then hove to for a couple of hours waiting for water in the Camel Estuary.
This was all manageable on a heavy 44ft boat. I am sure it wouldn't have been as pleasant on a small boat and turning back may not have been an option if a small boat cannot make good progress to windward

 

[dunedin]

Traditional hull shapes are better at holding on hove-to than modern shapes - a deep, slim, foil-section keel gives better lateral resistance compared to drag when moving than a long keel, but a long keel resists sideways motion better when stationary.
If I was seriously planning to end up at sea in bad weather in a small boat, I'd look for something that would heave to without losing much ground and with as comfortable a motion as could be expected. That implies deep, heavy, long keel, and a short-ish, heavy mast. Hence my earlier mention of a Heard 23.
But in reality, a good cruising boat in UK waters needn't ever get caught out too badly. Forecasts are reasonably reliable and harbours and anchorages are plentiful.
There's a nice Bowman 26 on Apollo Duck for around £6k that would do the job pretty well.

But nowadays more Mini 650s safely cross oceans than small long keelers. Boats like these Pogo 650 Mini Transat | Brighton Boat Sales

 

[Buck Turgidson]

But nowadays more Mini 650s safely cross oceans than small long keelers. Boats like these Pogo 650 Mini Transat | Brighton Boat Sales

yes, but they delay the races when bad weather is forecast.