Small boat heavy weather

[Davidbs]

Does anyone have any experience of small boats in heavy weather?
I am hoping to buy a sailing boat between 17 and 22 ft that can sail in at least F7, so that I don't have to scuttle for port early.
Particularly looking at boats like Shrimper 19s Hurley 22s, down to a Dockrell 17.
Also want to take the ground, so twin or lifting keels
I have long experience of bigger boats in heavy weather, but have no idea how small boats manage. Can anyone help?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Does anyone have any experience of small boats in heavy weather?
I am hoping to buy a sailing boat between 17 and 22 ft that can sail in at least F7, so that I don't have to scuttle for port early.
Particularly looking at boats like Shrimper 19s Hurley 22s, down to a Dockrell 17.
Also want to take the ground, so twin or lifting keels
I have long experience of bigger boats in heavy weather, but have no idea how small boats manage. Can anyone help?

I’ve only been in a 7 metre boat in moderate conditions. From my limited experience of this size, the answer is that you and the boat ‘might’ survive but you’ll be thrown about a LOT! It’ll be extremely uncomfortable. Heavy weather is bad enough in a moderately sized boat.

Small boats generally avoid heavy weather for a reason.

 

[nevis768]

I have a Falmouth Bass boat, 16 feet, which I have sailed frequently in F7, but only in freshwater or sheltered locations.It has a swinging keel and is very stable, not built for speed.I would go out in any weather in Lakes or lochs, but was very wary in it on the open sea. It also had a mizzen so I would often utilise this with the jib in bad weather. I have now bought a larger yacht so I don't have to worry, it has a wheelhouse and heater, luxury after years of open boat sailing.

 

[Poignard]

I can't remember his name* but there's a man who takes himself off to the Arctic in a very small boat and survives, but his boat is adapted for extreme conditions (and so is he!).

Might be worth seeing if he has made any videos or written any books so that you can judge what you might be up against.

* Yes I can! Roger Taylor. Roger Taylor: Impossible voyage conquered - Yachting Monthly

 

[Victorianna]

I sailed a Hurley 22 for a few years years and found myself in F7 conditions sometimes, but very rarely by choice.
My experience was that the boat was fine and very seakindly for a small boat. Hurley's have a 50% ballast/displacement ratio and I had a triple reefed main and hank on storm jib. I could set a small amount of sail and just make ground to windward. Hurley's have crossed the Atlantic - look up the jester challenge etc.

It's possibly less about the wind speed and more about sea state in a small boat. A F7 in flat water e.g. in the lee of a headland is very different to a F7 in a confused cross sea in wind against tide with underlying Atlantic swell rolling in...
Regardless of whether the boat can take it, it's going to be very bouncy, wet and fairly unpleasant on a small boat, so I'd be "scuttling to port" regardless and heading for a warm pub.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We sail a 20ft day racer come rain or shine. Finding yourself in gusts well into the 30s is not unusual. 2/3 very experienced sailors it's not comfortable but it’s survivable. I am still here. My 30 foot cruiser, with a truly impressive SA/D ratio is so much easier and more comfortable. You just get the sail off, reef, in good time. You can’t beat LOA.

 

[mrming]

Agree with Victorianna that’s it’s more about sea state than wind speed for a small yacht. We regularly raced our 6.5m swing keeler in gusts of 30 knots plus, but always in relatively sheltered waters with nothing worse than a chop. When we did venture out into bigger waves it was very hard work to windward. Downwind was absolutely fine though, being based on an early Mini Transat design she used to surf readily and behaved well.

 

[johnalison]

No small boat would be even remotely tolerable for me in open water in a F7. As a general rule, a well-found small boat will cope with more than its occupants. If I were choosing such a boat, I would be looking for one with plenty of ballast and a sailplan that can be properly snugged down, and not too much top-hamper. Although I once had a brief sail in an Itchen ferry-yacht that was so heavy that nothing would frighten it, I think that a degree of performance is probably desirable too.

 

[jamie N]

I would suggest something akin to a bilge keeled Folkboat; slightly longer than your initial criteria, but a good area to find your 'goal'.

 

[Davidbs]

I have a Falmouth Bass boat, 16 feet, which I have sailed frequently in F7, but only in freshwater or sheltered locations.It has a swinging keel and is very stable, not built for speed.I would go out in any weather in Lakes or lochs, but was very wary in it on the open sea. It also had a mizzen so I would often utilise this with the jib in bad weather. I have now bought a larger yacht so I don't have to worry, it has a wheelhouse and heater, luxury after years of open boat sailing.

Thank you, that is the sort of thing I need to know. Coping with waves is just experience and skill. Worked on a ketch many years ago, and jib and mizzen works a treat on big boats too

 

[Davidbs]

I sailed a Hurley 22 for a few years years and found myself in F7 conditions sometimes, but very rarely by choice.
My experience was that the boat was fine and very seakindly for a small boat. Hurley's have a 50% ballast/displacement ratio and I had a triple reefed main and hank on storm jib. I could set a small amount of sail and just make ground to windward. Hurley's have crossed the Atlantic - look up the jester challenge etc.

It's possibly less about the wind speed and more about sea state in a small boat. A F7 in flat water e.g. in the lee of a headland is very different to a F7 in a confused cross sea in wind against tide with underlying Atlantic swell rolling in...
Regardless of whether the boat can take it, it's going to be very bouncy, wet and fairly unpleasant on a small boat, so I'd be "scuttling to port" regardless and heading for a warm pub.

Thank you. Hurleys have that vague reputation, but I needed to hear it from an owner. I have always liked sailing in rough conditions, makes you feel alive!

 

[Davidbs]

We sail a 20ft day racer come rain or shine. Finding yourself in gusts well into the 30s is not unusual. 2/3 very experienced sailors it's not comfortable but it’s survivable. I am still here. My 30 foot cruiser, with a truly impressive SA/D ratio is so much easier and more comfortable. You just get the sail off, reef, in good time. You can’t beat LOA.

What is she? Not that tri?

 

[MisterBaxter]

A Hurley 22 would be infinitely preferable to a Shrimper for your purposes.
But I think the problem is that weight helps with comfort and safety in a heavy sea, but lots of weight in a small boat means a slug in lighter winds. For my own taste, a Heard 23 with legs for drying out upright would be a good heavy weather boat at that LOA - deep and heavy but with easy lines and plenty of sail area.
Mainly I'd suggest, don't make too many plans that involve being at sea in a small boat in heavy weather until you've spent some time at sea in a small boat in heavy weather. You might decide that it's not much fun, which is the conclusion that many people arrive at.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Mine is 28ft and it's not fun in big waves. The wind speed isn't the issue it's the getting thrown around that gets tiresome. (F8 -9 is the worst Ive been in Atlantic and Med. Med was worse due to steeper waves).

 

[Chiara’s slave]

What is she? Not that tri?

Yes, even a 30 ft tri is way easier in heavy weather than a 20ft 50% ballast long keel mono.

 

[Slowtack]

Are we talking Estuary sailing or the open Atlantic here?

 

[HughClayton]

My experience is that a Shrimper 21 isn’t a boat that you’d want to be sailing in 30 kts but their big sisters, the Crabbers 24 or 26 would be fine.

How pleasant the experience is really depends on the sea conditions but I’ve sailed in 30 kts in my Crabber 26. I wouldn’t plan and I generally set a limit on leaving port at 25 kts but things can blow up and a reefed mainsail and staysail is fine. The lifting plate also allows you to take the ground and creep up the creeks where others can’t.

 

[William_H]

As said a modern GRP small sail boat with self draining cockpit and enough ballast to be self righting with a moderate robust easily reefed rig should survive anything. Given enough sea room. You would need harness to stay in cockpit and a way to seal off cabin either with you/ crew inside or outside.
But as said also it is the resilience of the crew that matters. Long term violent motion can be wearing to the point leading crew to do bad/desperate things. I would urge OP to not be so sure about his own abilities in rough water long term. Some can and have done it but certainly I would not want it. ol'will

 

[Tranona]

Does anyone have any experience of small boats in heavy weather?
I am hoping to buy a sailing boat between 17 and 22 ft that can sail in at least F7, so that I don't have to scuttle for port early.
Particularly looking at boats like Shrimper 19s Hurley 22s, down to a Dockrell 17.
Also want to take the ground, so twin or lifting keels
I have long experience of bigger boats in heavy weather, but have no idea how small boats manage. Can anyone help?

The 3 boats you quote are very different. The Hurley is a scaled down heavy displacement yacht whereas the other 2 are scaled up dinghies with enough ballast to make them selfrighting.

It is useful to look at the RCD Categories here bateswharf.co.uk/news/ce-categories-explained/ The Shrimper is the only one built to the RCD and is Cat C The other 2 are too old to have an official category, but modern boats of the Dockerell type would also be C. Difficult to get a modern comparison to the Hurley as few boats of that style have been built to the RCD, but it would likely to also be C but maybe make B because of the stability level from the high ballast ratio.

Cat C is coastal with wave heights of 2m and wind speeds of F6. Some of the answers given already reflect this in that the drop keel semi open boats can be sailed in higher wind strengths in sheltered waters but are not designed for regular use in open waters because of the combination of higher wind strength and larger waves. There are 2 aspects to this. The first is safety through stability and the second is the ability to make progress in the conditions. So while some small boats like the Hurley have made ocean passages they are neither comfortable nor able to make progress against wind and waves. Some people (like Roger Taylor cited earlier) like the challenge of this type of "sailing" and build their boats as survival pods, but really if you want to sail in open waters in more demanding conditions you need a bigger boat.

There is no reason sailing in UK coastal waters you should get "caught out" in a F7 and the sort of boat you want +/- 20' and capable of drying out is not intended for those sort of conditions. If you enjoy sailing in rough conditions there are plenty of boats from the past in the next size range up (24-27') available for modest money that will do the job.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The problem isn't so much what the bost will handle as what you can handle. A small boat is far stronger in relation to its size than a ship; a sea state that could damage the kind of small monohull you describe would already have beaten you into submission!

However, a small boat will make little if any progress to windward in the conditions that a gale implies. The sea will a) stop it and b) knock the head off the wind. So, even if the boat is weatherly and fast in calmer waters, in a heavy sea she will make little if any ground to windward. And a boat that is weatherly and fast in calmer water might well be lighter and finer lined, and so less able to stand up to a big sea. The bottom line is that while the boat might survive merely being out in heavy weather, it might not be able to make progress to allow it to escape from a lee shore.