Small boat heavy weather

[westernman]

I have sailed in 3 M+ waves a number of times in the southern N sea.( certainly not out of choice). 4 Metres in the Alderney race can be close together & 3M off Barfleur & Cap Griz Nez, on the wrong day, at the wrong time, wrong place. But I cannot say that I have noticed the frequency to be as low as 2 seconds. (crest to crest) I am surprised that there would be room to get a 3M wave in the space.

The 2 s interval is a speciality of Cap Bear and the Golf de Leon. Also I used the word chop as often you have a combination of waves from different directions which make it truly nast to beat into.

However, a good blast of Tramontane for a long period of time, will give nice flat seas in that area. I have left port in a F8 gusting F9 for a down wind sail in those "flat" conditions and rounded Cap Bear with only a stay sail up at 9 knots (we were at 4 knots without any sails up at all!) without even getting the deck wet.

 

[nevis768]

It's worth adding that in small boats it's fairly easy to break things when sailing in strong winds, particularly masts, booms, and fittings attached to these. Tillers are also much more likely to break in strong winds/larger waves.I've snapped 2 tillers, a Mast, 1boom and 2rudders sailing in strong winds, and tend to avoid it these days.

 

[westernman]

It's worth adding that in small boats it's fairly easy to break things when sailing in strong winds, particularly masts, booms, and fittings attached to these. Tillers are also much more likely to break in strong winds/larger waves.I've snapped 2 tillers, a Mast, 1boom and 2rudders sailing in strong winds, and tend to avoid it these days.

It is easy to break things in a big boat as well. You usually have winches, windlasses and many other ways of overloading fittings etc.

 

[boomerangben]

Been out in a 20’ water ballasted boat in what was probably gusting to the top of a 6 (no gadgets to measure) around the north of Rum. Did I feel alive? Yes. My sphincter was telling me just how alive I was……. And just how fragile life is

 

[JRCO26]

My old Achilles 24 was a great getuhome boat...

One sailed to NZ... 'Songeur'

"In 1976 a boat called Songeur, completed from a basic kit by a Kiwi (Rodney Kendall) for the trip, was the smallest entrant permitted that year in the Observer Single-handed Transatlantic Race. It turned out to be one of the roughest races ever, with headwinds, but he finished regardless (as also did Chris Butler in Achilles Neuf the first Achilles 9 metre). Rodders thereafter continued down the east coast of the USA, through the Panama Canal, and proceeded to cross the Pacific too, finishing in his homeland. The boat is still there, in other hands.
Unfortunately Rodney doesn't seem to have written up his Odyssey, but one titbit that did get back to the UK was that halfway across the Pacific, in open water, he passed another A24 going the opposite way!! He wasn't hallucinating at the time....".

 

[Laminar Flow]

As with all discussions, the boats tend to get bigger and bigger.

As volume and displacement increase to the third power, it should be noted that a 24' boat, is de facto, a 178.5% larger than a 20 footer.
Stability too increases exponentially with size. The 24 footer will be almost 3 times more stable than a 20' boat.

Size matters, even it it's "only" a 4' increase.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

As with all discussions, the boats tend to get bigger and bigger.

As volume and displacement increase to the third power, it should be noted that a 24' boat, is de facto, a 178.5% larger than a 20 footer.
Stability too increases exponentially with size. The 24 footer will be almost 3 times more stable than a 20' boat.

Size matters, even it it's "only" a 4' increase.

I’m sure elephants would agree.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I'm sure elephants avoid going out in a F7 in a glorified dinghy as well.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I'm sure elephants avoid going out in a F7 in a glorified dinghy as well.

I’ve never seen one, so it must be true. Even though they’ve got four feet more than most of us.

 

[Daydream believer]

I’ve never seen one, so it must be true. Even though they’ve got four feet more than most of us.

Well how many feet have you got? Because an elephant only has 4 feet, so deduct 4 leaves zero. I know you are in to wierdo boats. So, if you have zero feet, do you have wheels on your bum as well?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Well how many feet have you got, because an elephant only has 4 feet, so deduct 4 leaves zero. I know you are in to wierdo boats. So if you have zero feet do you have wheels on your bum as well?

I think you’re missing the double entendre.

 

[Daydream believer]

I think you’re missing the double entendre.

No. you are missing 2 feet

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Hang on ... an elephant has fore-legs and back legs .... that's six legs in total - presumably with feet at the end of them.

Deduct 4 feet and you have 2 left - which is what @Chiara’s slave said.

..... I'm confused.

 

[Daydream believer]

Hang on ... an elephant has fore-legs and back legs .... that's six legs in total - presumably with feet at the end of them.

Deduct 4 feet and you have 2 left - which is what @Chiara’s slave said.

..... I'm confused.

You are making assumptions & we all know what the reliance of assumptions can lead to. What if someone makes a noise & the elephant legs it. That is one more. Chiara could be back to 2 legs & a boot up his bum

 

[Caer Urfa]

I have sailed many times not by choice in a F7 and suggest you consider a 'Colvic Watson 23'-6"' but sometimes sailed less than a F7 but in heavier swells (North Sea) , from experience with engine running to maintain 5 knots mainsail down but the Genoa out about 3' to maintain directional headway
Under sail only again Genoa out about 3' and main sail reefed down to no 2 reef but speed will vary depending on wind direction, did did not sail with winds higher than 24mph especially in NE winds but best SW winds

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I have sailed many times not by choice in a F7 and suggest you consider a 'Colvic Watson 23'-6"' but sometimes sailed less than a F7 but in heavier swells (North Sea) , from experience with engine running to maintain 5 knots mainsail down but the Genoa out about 3' to maintain directional headway
Under sail only again Genoa out about 3' and main sail reefed down to no 2 reef but speed will vary depending on wind direction, did did not sail with winds higher than 24mph especially in NE winds but best SW winds

In general it's not where the wind is coming from but where you are going relative to it that matters.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I think that if the OP wants to go out in heavy weather, or feels that he might get CAUGHT in heavy weather - which is the commonest scenario he needs to look at different designs of boat.
So far on the smaller boats the Anderson 2 ( yeah yeah you can all laugh) is a good sea boat. Our club commodore dedicated his life to Instructing youth on training yachts. He received an award for that from princess Anne. He had an Anderson & sailed the Baltic & down to Biscay. His tales of heavy weather in it are many & he says ( No these are NOT Seajet fabrications) what an excellent boat it is. I gave a lift to a chap once who, it turned out, sailed one across the Atlantic SH.
So that should be high on his list if he wants to do some fettling.
I had a Stella which at 25ft 9 ins is out of the OPs size range. I have been in numerous F7 & thrashed it all round the Thames estuary. However, I have been in a F9 in it once in the 70s & it scared the living daylights out of me. I had a crew, but he was down below for the entire 30 hour trip, dying. The firs wave to break right over the boat made me scream with fear & I am not afraid to admit it.
However, I had to heave too for 4.5 hours & actually slept for 3.5 hours whilst the boat just bobbed up & down.
So I would suggest that if that size of boat is too big then at least look at the hull shape. The Folkboat is smaller & many have done epic voyages in them. But I would still look for an Invicta or a Contessa 26 or similar.
The long keel makes for a good shape upwind & heaves too
My current 31 ft Hanse has carried me through my second F9, en route from Ijmuiden to Lowestoft & it was hell. We could not heave too & just had to keep plugging on. It did the 100 miles , all of which were to windward, in 24 hours but they were the worse 24 of my sailing life. A short fin in those conditions just does not stack up to a nice long keel.
But I would suggest to the Op that look for a long keel, not a bilge keel( useless up wind in a chop) & look for a fine entry, not something with a bluff bow, because it has more room up forward.- Otherwise you will need a big reliable inboard.

I’ve sailed and owned long keel boats as well as boats with various forms of fin keel and I humbly suggest that stating that long is best is buying into a myth that simply can’t be substantiated.

There are plenty of long keeled boats that plod along but if we’re honest they actually sail like dogs and they manoeuvre under power astern with the grace of an elephant on heat. There are also plenty of lightweight fin keeled boats that are twitchy flyers that don’t track and certainly don’t heave to.

In between there are lots of boats that have moderate fins and which will trounce most any long keeled boat in all points of sailing, sail as comfortably as any other in big seas and heavy weather yet will still heave to reliably and easily. As a big bonus they manoeuvre beautifully and predictably under power.

Eg Lots of the Contessas, Sigmas, Nicholson’s and Westerly’s (including our own Sealord. Other designs and manufacturers are available.

I appreciate that these are all much bigger boats than the OP is looking for, but I can’t let the old myth about long keels being the best solution go unchallenged.

 

[Poignard]

T

I’ve sailed and owned long keel boats as well as boats with various forms of fin keel and I humbly suggest that stating that long is best is buying into a myth that simply can’t be substantiated.

There are plenty of long keeled boats that plod along but if we’re honest they actually sail like dogs and they manoeuvre under power astern with the grace of an elephant on heat. There are also plenty of lightweight fin keeled boats that are twitchy flyers that don’t track and certainly don’t heave to.

In between there are lots of boats that have moderate fins and which will trounce most any long keeled boat in all points of sailing, sail as comfortably as any other in big seas and heavy weather yet will still heave to reliably and easily. As a big bonus they manoeuvre beautifully and predictably under power.

Eg Lots of the Contessas, Sigmas, Nicholson’s and Westerly’s (including our own Sealord. Other designs and manufacturers are available.

I appreciate that these are all much bigger boats than the OP is looking for, but I can’t let the old myth about long keels being the best solution go unchallenged.

Oh Lord!

That’s halved the value of my Twister.

Thanks pal.

 

[john_morris_uk]

T
Oh Lord!

That’s halved the value of my Twister.

Thanks pal.

Twisters are great boats and fetch a premium for a reason. I think your money is safe.

 

[Supertramp]

I’ve sailed and owned long keel boats as well as boats with various forms of fin keel and I humbly suggest that stating that long is best is buying into a myth that simply can’t be substantiated.

There are plenty of long keeled boats that plod along but if we’re honest they actually sail like dogs and they manoeuvre under power astern with the grace of an elephant on heat. There are also plenty of lightweight fin keeled boats that are twitchy flyers that don’t track and certainly don’t heave to.

In between there are lots of boats that have moderate fins and which will trounce most any long keeled boat in all points of sailing, sail as comfortably as any other in big seas and heavy weather yet will still heave to reliably and easily. As a big bonus they manoeuvre beautifully and predictably under power.

Eg Lots of the Contessas, Sigmas, Nicholson’s and Westerly’s (including our own Sealord. Other designs and manufacturers are available.

I appreciate that these are all much bigger boats than the OP is looking for, but I can’t let the old myth about long keels being the best solution go unchallenged.

I agree with you.

Old, and I mean really old, boats were usually built for work not play. A long keel in wood gave a stronger structure and the seaworthiness was established over centuries of fishing, trading and piloting. That does not make them better than modern designs made from modern materials. They offer a different experience to modern designs, inferior in some aspects and perhaps superior in a few.

The OP (remember him?) was looking for the ability to deal with strong winds and associated seas, plus the ability to take the ground. He didn't say he wanted to go faster than the boat in front.

A long keel might work for him, or twin keels. Or a moderate fin. If there is one factor I would look for above all others it is displacement - regardless of keel type you don't want an overgrown dinghy with ballast, enormous fun though they are to sail.