RYA ICC renewal

[webcraft]

I think one of the final insults by the RYA was to be given "Gold" membership. Labelling us as old coffin dodgers without giving any meaningful benefit, such as concessionary subscription rates. I resented this.

Gold membership is a function of the length of time you have been a member AFAIK, not a function of your age. It does carry specific benefits, some of which some people will no doubt find useful.

- W

 

[Tranona]

Its been my experience that I or the wife have never been asked for the ICC, even when hiring a yacht in Greece for two weeks holiday.
I find that talking to other sailors who have been overseas, hiring and sailing/motoring their own boats that the majority of officials only want your passport (the real one), and in some cases your insurance just to see your liability cover, even then they only give it all a cursory glance.
I even met a few Dutch sailors, who said they don't know anyone with one either. Its one of those euro rules which no-one follows except the RYA in UK, its a few quid in the coffers.
I also seem to remember that there is another one not required for your average boaty, and thats the CEVNI, most boats are way too small, but its another cash for the coffers...RYA, I was told you can purchase this along with the ICC at your port of call for a few euros from the harbour master or official if they ask for it.
There are loads of sailors out there travelling the world who have none of these bits of card and have never been asked for them, my wife for one, shes from NZ.

You could not be more wrong.

First it is absolutely nothing to do with "Euro" rules - but is issued under the auspices of the UN. Suggest you read the extensive material on the subject on the RYA site then at least you will start from knowing the background of the certificate.

Just because you have never been asked for a certificate does not mean that others have not been. It is a legal requirment if you take your own boat into the CEVNI inland waterways (because it is the only way of getting the CEVNI endorsement). You cannot buy it as you go along - it can only be issued by the body in your home country that is authorised to issue it after you have provided evidence of your competence.

You will also find if you search the subject on these fora - it comes up with monotonous regularity - that many people have been asked for evidence of competence even in countries that have not signed up to the UN Resolution. You will also find reliable accounts of people experiencing difficulties with officials because they are unable to produce any certification. Barnacle's account of what happens regularly in Croatia is a case in point, and I can relate first hand experiences of difficulties in Greece.

So, just accept that if you want to cruise widely without hassle, it is unwise not to have an ICC. If you don't intend cruising widely, then don't bother - but at least make your decision based on sound information rather than trying to construct your own account of what it is about.

 

[Jegs]

ICC

Don't think I've ever been asked for mine either, but regard it as useful just in case - these people love bits of paper to examine or possibly just to spin matters out in order to detect signs of nervousness.

John G

 

[BrianH]

No Barnacle. I pointed YOU at the rules here:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265932

THE CROATIA ICC REQUIREMENT IS A MYTH.

A myth you had been spreading up until that thread. (See post 7.)

In that thread you quote me (from presumably some earlier thread) as writing:
"If no ICC is possessed then they will insist on you taking a competency test when declaring in - and they will charge you for it."
which I agree is no longer valid - since the published list contains many other qualifications that are accepted. That is why I now only mentioned a 'certificate of competence' of some form.

I do know that there was a time, not so long ago, before the official list was published, that a German/Austrian/Swiss Segel-D-Schein or ICC was demanded of me in the harbour master's office in the entry port of Umag. At that time there was no way to question that as the local officialdom had complete power to interpret "certificate of competence" how they wanted.

 

[vyv_cox]

Its one of those euro rules which no-one follows except the RYA in UK, its a few quid in the coffers.
I also seem to remember that there is another one not required for your average boaty, and thats the CEVNI, most boats are way too small,

You should check your facts before writing this misleading stuff. I have been required to show my ICC in France, Spain, Italy and Greece, both to port/marina staff and to port police.

When transiting the Canal du Midi my inland waters ICC (the CEVNI part) was checked at least three times, initially on entry from the Gironde and later in spot checks. It was made clear that I could not have entered the system without the correct paperwork.

 

[Alyssa]

ICC

In the past five years I have been asked for an ICC on several occasions in Spain, Italy, Greece and Croatia.

I have no idea whether it is really mandatory, or not.... and I really don't care. Compared with the other costs of sailings, the cost of an ICC is really a drop in the bucket.

But living in the real world I would prefer to avoid having to argue with officialdom, particularly one that speaks a different language!

I suspect that those who wish to argue that it is not required have never been in a situation where it has been demanded. Easy to argue any point from the safety of an armchair!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I suspect that those who wish to argue that it is not required have never been in a situation where it has been demanded.

As far as I can tell NOBODY has been in a situation where an ICC has been demanded outside of a few very specific inland waterways.

The people in this thread are saying they've been asked for an ICC. NOBODY is suggesting there is any specific consequence of not having one.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I have been required to show my ICC in France

Coastal France? I think a lot of people are mistakenly thinking that any document someone asks for must be 'required'.

I know you're going to avoid this question but I'll give you a chance anyway: What are the specific consequences to a UK sailor in a 'normal sized' Uk boat if he fails to produce an ICC in coastal France?

 

[Blue5]

As far as I can tell NOBODY has been in a situation where an ICC has been demanded outside of a few very specific inland waterways.

The people in this thread are saying they've been asked for an ICC. NOBODY is suggesting there is any specific consequence of not having one.

Your right but I for one will not be saying.

"Your not seeing it and what are you going to do about it"

I will just continue to get my free ICC from the RYA and show it when asked, much better to be sailing than arguing a point of law in a foreign police station.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Your right but I for one will not be saying.

"Your not seeing it and what are you going to do about it"

That's fine, and good luck to you.

I've no objection to people buying ICCs every five years.

My objection is purely to people telling other people they are required in places where they are not.

If someone presents a good reason to buy one, then I will. Until then, you sail with, and I'll continue to sail without and we'll both be happy.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

I have been asked for my license in

Portugal
Holland
Germany
Greece
Italy
S. France

In the lock in the Kiel Canal we were stopped by the German Police, they did not accept that my Yachtmaster Offshore or Ocean were recognised Certificates of Competence but were happy once I showed them an ICC.

There was a time however when I could have said that I had never been asked for any certificate of competence, I guess its just a matter of probability. The more time you spend sailing and powerboating the more likely someone will demand/ask to see some kind of certificate. The times I have been asked represent a very small % of all the times I have been boating abroad.

 

[vyv_cox]

Coastal France? I think a lot of people are mistakenly thinking that any document someone asks for must be 'required'.

I know you're going to avoid this question but I'll give you a chance anyway: What are the specific consequences to a UK sailor in a 'normal sized' Uk boat if he fails to produce an ICC in coastal France?

I'm not avoiding the question. The answer is - possible unpleasantness, hassle, difficulty in explaining topics that my French education left me totally unprepared for, being refused a berth in a marina, after an accident possibly considerably more. I look on it as a form of insurance.

 

[maxi77]

As far as I can tell NOBODY has been in a situation where an ICC has been demanded outside of a few very specific inland waterways.

The people in this thread are saying they've been asked for an ICC. NOBODY is suggesting there is any specific consequence of not having one.

It was made quite clear to me, no ICC, no charter. That makes your statement totally wrong and potentially dangerous for those who take yorur comments as fact.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Just had my ICC renewal reminder - another £40.00 is it really necessary?

Only matters abroad. If you go into inshore waters ( eg canals) of some EU countries you legally need to have passed the CEVNI test and as far as I know the ICC suitably endorsed is the only recognised way of UK boaters proving they have done so.

If you just go to coastal waters of EU countries then you have a choice. You can believe Toad ( who is probably legally quite correct) and not bother with an ICC but you risk having problems with some official who might be exceeding his legal rights but can still make a mess of your day.

I had an ICC but have never bothered renewing it. Like all these issues, interpretation differs from country to country as does the effectiveness of their authorities in implementing their own restrictions. I dont intend to go further than France these days and the French police are usually sensible

 

[Tranona]

I dont intend to go further than France these days and the French police are usually sensible

That is because France is not a signatory to UN Resolution 40 and does not require evidence of competence. As you say some inland waterways require CEVNI ICC, but that is completely independent of the UN resolution. All that is explained on the RYA site.

On the other hand there are many countries that also have not signed up to the Resolution, but still formally require evidence of competence in some circumstances, for example Greece requires it to skipper a Greek registered boat. However, it does not define what evidence is acceptable, so it is left to local officials to decide - and they (if they want to) will accept an ICC (as well as many other types of "licences" and declarations of competence). Yet other countries such as Croatia have a formal requirement, but list a whole range of qualifications that are acceptable - including ICC - but still leave a get out that allows local harbourmasters' discretion to carry out their own assessment before issuing a cruising permit for a charter boat.

So you will see from just these few examples that those who think that you can have a clear, unambiguous set of rules and get a clear distinction between "demand" and "ask for" are just showing how unconnected they are with the real world.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

So you will see from just these few examples that those who think that you can have a clear, unambiguous set of rules and get a clear distinction between "demand" and "ask for" are just showing how unconnected they are with the real world.

Both VAT documentation and the red diesel issue support what you say. I'm not sure there is a distinction between request and demand when the person doing the asking wears a peaked cap, doesnt speak english and carries a gun!

But to keep it in proportion, none of them are frequent / common causes of problems and often there is some other issue that triggers things.

 

[chinita]

I wonder what would happen if the RYA (a commercial organisation) decided to drop issuing the ICC. They are (as a commercial organisation) not compelled to take on this service.

What would the UN do then?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I believe that the issuing of the ICC was triggered not by the UN but by various countries not accepting that British yotties didnt need / have driving licences. The YM cert was not acceptable to most since it was only in English and without a photo anyway so the RYA chose to start issuing the ICC.

Its a profit making venture so I dont see why they would ever stop. If they did then I guess it would go over to the same people that do the SSSI, another bit of paper invented purely to satisfy foreign customs/ border police.

 

[rob2]

Gold membership is a function of the length of time you have been a member AFAIK, not a function of your age. It does carry specific benefits, some of which some people will no doubt find useful.

- W

Yes, I noticed that being a gold member allows us to continue to enjoy the members' benefits free that were previously free to all members. We avoid the new charges, I don't see any other benefit... Mind you, that doesn't mean that I will refuse to avail myself of these!

Rob.

 

[Tranona]

I believe that the issuing of the ICC was triggered not by the UN but by various countries not accepting that British yotties didnt need / have driving licences. The YM cert was not acceptable to most since it was only in English and without a photo anyway so the RYA chose to start issuing the ICC.

Its a profit making venture so I dont see why they would ever stop. If they did then I guess it would go over to the same people that do the SSSI, another bit of paper invented purely to satisfy foreign customs/ border police.

No, wrong on all counts. It is not an RYA sponsored piece of paper. Please read the background on the certificate on the RYA site.