Roller reefing main vs stack-pack, advice and tips please.

[Baggywrinkle]

... I just got back from a charter of a Sun Odyssey 409 with a stack-pack as the 409/419 is one of the boats on my shopping list and I really want to love stack-packs for the sailing advantages. After years of sailing with a roller reefing main here are my observations - any comments or tips and tricks to make this work better would be gratefully received.

Disclaimer: I am not tall, 1,65m ... this is fundamentally what caused me the most issues, and is probably the same for all AWBs with booms high above the cockpit on top of a bimini. We are a cruising couple (my partner is even smaller than me) and apart from the main sail, sailing the boat was absolutely no problem for the pair of us.

1. Getting the main up was not a problem apart from the baton ends getting caught in the lazy-jacks - the view from the cockpit with sprayhood and bimini was severely compromised so I ended up raising the main standing on the companionway steps while peering up through the sprayhood. loosening and tensioning the lazy-jacks didn't make much difference and it only really worked head-to-wind, easing the batons past the lazy-jacks - How can this be prevented? Sail modifications?

2. Dropping the main was easy and it fell nicely into the sail bag, but the flapping main halyard in the large swell kept pulling about a meter to a meter and a half of sail back up the mast, trying to let out more halyard didn't work as there was too much friction in the blocks and mast so I had to grab the halyard at the mast. The mast was equipped with 2 mast steps to reach the halyard - it was a stretch for me and hanging onto the mast a meter above the deck while trying to grab the main halyard and tame it was precarious in the swell. I ended up using a boat hook to grab it and pull it down to a cleat to make it fast - there was no way I could detach it from the main in a swell. How do others tame the main halyard? Can it be done from the cockpit?

3. Zipping up the sail bag was a non-starter - I simply could not reach the end of the boom without taking the bimini down and standing on the cockpit seats or table - even then it would be a stretch. The sprayhood and bimini were so large there was no way I could reach around them - I can't be the only person with this problem, how do others solve it?

4. Never needed to reef, but I have done it in another similar boat and single line reefing worked fine - the only gripe being that only 4 sail sizes are available compared to an infinitely variable roller main. This is not a dealbreaker though.

5. The fully battened main was far nicer to set and sail compared to the roller reefing I am used to, going head to wind to raise and lower the sail was the only gripe - is it possible to use a stack-pack to reef or raise/lower the main without altering course?

6. One observation that came as a surprise was getting the boom to stop swinging from side to side. The boat had a traveller on the cabin-top forward of the sprayhood and the boom + sail bag + sail weighed a ton, the tension required in the main sheet and the topping lift to keep it in the centre was scary, it still moved and clanked though. The bare boom of a roller-reefing system is far lighter and stays centered. Maybe two attachment points and no traveller, creating a triangle, will hold the boom steadier?

7. UV damage to the sail is also a worry, if I can't close the bag except with acrobatics and climbing all over the boom, then the sail will remain exposed to UV far longer than a roller-reefing main. Is this an issue in the real-world or just an unnecessary worry?

Finally, how does a vertically battened main on a roller reefing system compare to a fully battened stack-pack main?

 

[Tranona]

Pretty good summary of the pros and cons. Simple answer for closing the bag is to have the zip starting at the mast end. One of my neighbours has this for similar reasons to what you describe. No easy solution to battens catching the lazyjacks except watching closely as you raise the sail not easy when you have a bimini and spray hood in place.

For me if considering a boat of that type and your use a furling main is a no brainer. While the "set" may not be as good, the impact on passage times is minimal to non existent. Yes, vertical battens improve sail shape and increase area, but are expensive, heavy and can make furling more difficult. With my Bavaria we compromised by having the new mainsail made in Vectran with a Spectra reinforced leech and this transformed the performance of the boat compared with the original basic OE sail. Probably not much impact on passage times, but big improvement in pointing and reduction in leeway when tacking up and down Poole Harbour. Important for me at the time because every trip out began and ended doing this! Very satisfying being able to keep up with some of the racier boats in an old man's cruiser! Long term pretty sure it would have held its shape and lasted longer to justify the price premium of about 30% over a more basic sail.

 

[johnalison]

I can't comment on the specific advantages of either system, but I wouldn't be over-concerned about the UV question. It is certainly desirable to cover the main generally, but people cross oceans without the sails falling apart, and I have not heard of them covering their sails for the most part. When we cruised for three summer months I would cover the main if we were staying more than one night but as often as not skip this if moving on the next day. UV damage was not evident when I changed my last main after about twelve years for other reasons.

 

[Boathook]

I've used a stackpack / fully battened main for around 25 years. Need to head to wind to fully raise and lower plus leaving mainsheet lose. Reefing (I have 3 slabs) I do whilst 'sailing' but the main does require depowering. the lazy jacks can be a problem and some people use elastic to pull them forward clear of the batten ends.

From your comments / issues you would be better of with an in mast furling main and maybe an electric winch to unfurl and furl. The systems do seem good nowadays unlike the original ones.

 

[geem]

I can't comment on the specific advantages of either system, but I wouldn't be over-concerned about the UV question. It is certainly desirable to cover the main generally, but people cross oceans without the sails falling apart, and I have not heard of them covering their sails for the most part. When we cruised for three summer months I would cover the main if we were staying more than one night but as often as not skip this if moving on the next day. UV damage was not evident when I changed my last main after about twelve years for other reasons.

It depends where you sail. The UV in the UK is negligible compared to the Caribbean or Med. UV damage to everything out here in the Caribbean is an issue. A sailmaker told me that for every month your Dacron sails are out in the sun, you lose 5% of their strength. We cover our sails immediately after we have anchored up.

 

[ylop]

My sailing instructor would tell you that at least some of the problems you had were not with the boom/sail arrangement but the cockpit canvas - and the answer is to put the sprayhood and Bimini away during those operations. Given your respective heights - I’d certainly look at options for being able to do that quickly/easily so you can improve access to the boom.

Flapping boom - I’ve experienced this when the sails are in a mess and catching the wind but you don’t want to go tidy them up because of the swell/waves. Moving the traveller to one side can help - and if it still bangs around I’ve (once) rigged an extra line to stop it (a bit like a preventer).

Main creeping back up the mast - I guess you could rig a light downhaul line to the head of the main (in advance) that you can pull in from the cockpit - but I’ve never needed to resort to a boathook to pull it down - can you not just use the sail itself to pull the halyard back down? If you still can’t reach the head (easily) when full down - perhaps it’s easier to add a sail tie about a meter back from the gooseneck which should stop it creeping back up.

HOWEVER these sort of inconveniences are exactly why for short handed (and perhaps short person!) sailing a furling main may be better than a stack pack.

 

[Whaup367]

Consider in-boom furling. Though it will almost certainly exacerbate issue #6.

You still get infinite reefing, easy sail management from the cockpit, full battens, a roach, UV protection, low mainsail head, no lazyjacks etc.

 

[geem]

Consider in-boom furling. Though it will almost certainly exacerbate issue #6.

You still get infinite reefing, easy sail management from the cockpit, full battens, a roach, UV protection, low mainsail head, no lazyjacks etc.

You can't reef inboom furling down wind. You always have to turn up into the wind.

 

[dunedin]

Baggywrinkle

I guess it depends on how much you enjoy sailing as opposed to just travelling in a boat. I believe the SO 409/419 is a decent sailing boat (if not in the XY / Arcona category) with the stackpack mainsail, but will be much less efficient, particularly going upwind, with the smaller and less well shaped in mast furling sail.
Since I started reading such threads on here a long time ago I started keeping a watch out, and 15 years and 25k miles on we have NEVER ONCE been overtaken upwind by a boat with an in mast furling mainsail, irrespective of boat length. by contrast we have overtaken many thousands of such boats, even 20 foot longer. So there is no question a good fully battened mainsail is more fun and efficient, if you enjoy sailing.

I have a fully battened sail of similar size - and similar boom height - and often sail singlehanded, and have not had any issues - see below.
The one issue I suspect is most tricky is the bimini - not a great need for them where I sail.

A couple of essentials - we have a couple of extra fold out mast steps at the bottom of the mast, making 4 in total - 2 are set parallel at a convenient height to reach the mainsail headboard when stowed.

I also fitted a short downhaul rope, attached to the headboard with a velcro "fuse" in case ever jammed aloft (it never has) and then by elastic to the third slider down. This allows the last bit of sail to be pulled down if necessary, and tied off to stop rising back up

Specifics
1. Getting the main up was not a problem apart from the baton ends getting caught in the lazy-jacks - the view from the cockpit with sprayhood and bimini was severely compromised so I ended up raising the main standing on the companionway steps while peering up through the sprayhood. loosening and tensioning the lazy-jacks didn't make much difference and it only really worked head-to-wind, easing the batons past the lazy-jacks - How can this be prevented? Sail modifications?
Our lazyjacks are pre set at the start of the season and never adjusted. And rarely have any issue in the hundreds of times that have done this. If have crew I swig up at the mast, with partner tailing and steering into the wind. i pull up when sail is between the lazyjacks. if solo I use autopilot and electric halyard winch (essential) - have a one metre thin wand which can use to press the button with betterr visibility.
Important - never put more than two turns on winch and never use self tailer - then if catches rope will slip not break something.

2. Dropping the main was easy and it fell nicely into the sail bag, but the flapping main halyard in the large swell kept pulling about a meter to a meter and a half of sail back up the mast, trying to let out more halyard didn't work as there was too much friction in the blocks and mast so I had to grab the halyard at the mast. The mast was equipped with 2 mast steps to reach the halyard - it was a stretch for me and hanging onto the mast a meter above the deck while trying to grab the main halyard and tame it was precarious in the swell. I ended up using a boat hook to grab it and pull it down to a cleat to make it fast - there was no way I could detach it from the main in a swell. How do others tame the main halyard? Can it be done from the cockpit?
The short downhaul rope is the trick here - grab this, pull headboard down and tie off. Sorted

3. Zipping up the sail bag was a non-starter - I simply could not reach the end of the boom without taking the bimini down and standing on the cockpit seats or table - even then it would be a stretch. The sprayhood and bimini were so large there was no way I could reach around them - I can't be the only person with this problem, how do others solve it?
We don't have bimini, so slightly easier. But I find much easier to zip from the back towards the front, and stand on the cockpit table or move boom to side and stand on cockpit seat. Too bultky and high to zip from the front.

4. Never needed to reef, but I have done it in another similar boat and single line reefing worked fine - the only gripe being that only 4 sail sizes are available compared to an infinitely variable roller main. This is not a dealbreaker though.
We fitted a third reef, not single line - but generally reefing is easily done from cockpit and should take less than 2-3 minutes. If sailing sheet in jib and do on a close reach or close hauled

5. The fully battened main was far nicer to set and sail compared to the roller reefing I am used to, going head to wind to raise and lower the sail was the only gripe - is it possible to use a stack-pack to reef or raise/lower the main without altering course?
As noted, we can reef or hoist going close hauled if the jib is pulled in tight. Otherwise head to wind.

6. One observation that came as a surprise was getting the boom to stop swinging from side to side. The boat had a traveller on the cabin-top forward of the sprayhood and the boom + sail bag + sail weighed a ton, the tension required in the main sheet and the topping lift to keep it in the centre was scary, it still moved and clanked though. The bare boom of a roller-reefing system is far lighter and stays centered. Maybe two attachment points and no traveller, creating a triangle, will hold the boom steadier?
Is your topping lift dyneema to avoid stretch? We have no topping lift but move main halyard to end of boom overnight, Even without this we have travelled long distances without boom swinging.

7. UV damage to the sail is also a worry, if I can't close the bag except with acrobatics and climbing all over the boom, then the sail will remain exposed to UV far longer than a roller-reefing main. Is this an issue in the real-world or just an unnecessary worry?
I guess this depends where you sail, and how many days you sail ? I see hundreds of boats which only zip the cover up when leaving unattended. Just a cost factor, how much to put aside to replace a saila bit sooner. Without the bimini, we always close overnight, but more from tidiness than UV reassons.

 

[Zing]

To secure the halyard throw a line over it with a weight, like a mini throwing line. You should be able to fairly accurately throw a few metres above you and have it land on the other side of the boom, pull the sail down, go up a couple of steps and that might be all you need. If not enough a boat hook will do it.

The Harken switch track system is great for lowering the stack height and halyard height therefore. It will lower the stack maybe a metre. Also a good external track and oversized ideally makes reefing easier and possible most of the time on all points of sail. Can be retrofitted.

Put a line to the end of the boom to a stern cleat to stop most boom movement. Put two on to stop nearly all movement.

Specify a wide V boom if you can get a big one. On larger yachts you have a couple of mast steps, secure the boom as above and you can walk in them easily to tidy up. Otherwise it’s remove the Bimini I think and maybe some small step ladders or just a mini-step.

 

[Whaup367]

You can't reef inboom furling down wind. You always have to turn up into the wind.

IMHO, that's an over-broad generalisation (Tom Cunliffe: A guide to downwind sailing), it depends on a number of factors, including which system you have.

There are trade-offs with all systems, I think, and the choice depends on your priorities. IMHO, the biggest issues with in-boom are the weight of the boom and its relatively low volume production.

 

[flaming]

Since I started reading such threads on here a long time ago I started keeping a watch out, and 15 years and 25k miles on we have NEVER ONCE been overtaken upwind by a boat with an in mast furling mainsail, irrespective of boat length. by contrast we have overtaken many thousands of such boats, even 20 foot longer. So there is no question a good fully battened mainsail is more fun and efficient, if you enjoy sailing.

Cause or effect though.....

Do you overtake them because their sail is so much worse, or because you are good sailors and appreciate a well setting sail, and those who have chosen in mast are less bothered....?

There are definitely tricks and tips with lazy jack/stackpack setup. Dad ended up basically redesigning one with a sailmaker, and I was amused to see at a boat show some years later several of his ideas in their standard product.

First trick is to move the zip from the middle of the bag to one side. You then have a top piece attached to one side that drops into the bag once the sail has been hoisted, and to zip it up all you have to do is pull it out and gently throw it over the top of the sail, then zip up the bag from one side in easy reach.
To store the halyard away from the mast, a cheap light carabiner hook on the first lazyjack attachment is fine. Leave the halyard attached to the sail, and loop it back to that hook.
Don't allow the old school "lazyjacks terminating at cleats on the mast" approach. Instead bring the terminating lazyjack down to the 1st attachment point and add in a big loop of strong bungee. This allows the lazyjacks to be self adjusting and means that when you hoist they are broadly under tension, which makes it a LOT easier to get the battens past them.
On the same point, if possible specify "in to out" batten pockets, where the batten is loaded at the luff end, rather than the leach end. This tends to mean there is less to snag on the lazyjacks on hoisting.

On the point about reefing being in slabs rather than infinite... That ignores the fact that reefing is not the only way to depower a mainsail, especially a slab reefed one. You should be adjusting halyard, reefing line / outhaul tension, kicker etc in between the large slabs.

 

[dunedin]

Cause or effect though.....

Do you overtake them because their sail is so much worse, or because you are good sailors and appreciate a well setting sail, and those who have chosen in mast are less bothered....?

…….

I have sailed both in mast and stack pack versions of the same boat - in one case the Elan 333 which is a superb sailing boat with standard mainsail, but it was dreadfully slow upwind with the furling main. This was with the same sailor.
Clearly there are some boats with reduced losses from an in mast furling main, if designed for performwnce from the start - generally need to start with a bigger mast, and using the best laminate sails with vertical battens. A 45 foot Southerly with deep drop keel and impressive black battened jib and mainsail was one of the trickiest boats to catch.
But most performance boats wanting to avoid the inefficiencies seem to be going (expensive) carbon furling boom - notably most new X Yachts and many Arconas.

 

[flaming]

I have sailed both in mast and stack pack versions of the same boat - in one case the Elan 333 which is a superb sailing boat with standard mainsail, but it was dreadfully slow upwind with the furling main. This was with the same sailor.
Clearly there are some boats with reduced losses from an in mast furling main, if designed for performwnce from the start - generally need to start with a bigger mast, and using the best laminate sails with vertical battens. A 45 foot Southerly with deep drop keel and impressive black battened jib and mainsail was one of the trickiest boats to catch.
But most performance boats wanting to avoid the inefficiencies seem to be going (expensive) carbon furling boom - notably most new X Yachts and many Arconas.

A boat with a tweaky fractional rig, like the Elan 333, is the very worst to be using in in-mast.

Old school IOR derived rigs with large headsails and small trim tab mains would have the least penalty.

I obviously agree that in mast is definitely slower, but think there is sometimes a confirmation bias between how much slower based on the fact that very few performance minded sailors would be sailing with one....

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We have a stackpack. Zip in the middle, but starting at the mast end of the boom. Our boom isn’t as high, possibly, I’m barely average height and can zip it up fine. Ours snags the lazyjacks on the way up if not within 10 degrees of the wind. We put up with it. Our boat without a fully battened main is unthinkable.

 

[geem]

We have a stackpack. Zip in the middle, but starting at the mast end of the boom. Our boom isn’t as high, possibly, I’m barely average height and can zip it up fine. Ours snags the lazyjacks on the way up if not within 10 degrees of the wind. We put up with it. Our boat without a fully battened main is unthinkable.

We have a stack pack with zip off to one side. It makes it so much easier to zip up. It also helps that we have webbing and a clip at the outer end of thr stackpack to close the two halves off the stackpack. This makes it easier to start the zip. The zip has a long piece of string so we can pull it from some distance away. We also ease the kicker so the boom is just above the sprayhood. If the sea is bumpy, we use the traveller to bring the boom over to one side so we can stow the sail from the side deck.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We have a stack pack with zip off to one side. It makes it so much easier to zip up. It also helps that we have webbing and a clip at the outer end of thr stackpack to close the two halves off the stackpack. This makes it easier to start the zip. The zip has a long piece of string so we can pull it from some distance away. We also ease the kicker so the boom is just above the sprayhood. If the sea is bumpy, we use the traveller to bring the boom over to one side so we can stow the sail from the side deck.

The traveller trick and the long string on the zip are useful, we do that too. Getting someone to push the boom out to get it more aligned with the wind when hoisting is good sometimes too. As there’s usually 2 of us, we get George the ST2000 to steer if we need that.

 

[Stemar]

A light downhaul lead back to the cockpit with the other lines solves the problem of the wind trying to raise the sail again. We let the sail drop as far as it wanted to then pulled the downhaul in and made it off. That way the main isn't going anywhere until you're parked up and able to give it your full attention.

Zipping from the mast aft will allow you to close it most of the way from the cabin top and a bit of string on the zip will make it easier to get it the rest of the way.

 

[HenrikH]

A boat with a tweaky fractional rig, like the Elan 333, is the very worst to be using in in-mast.

Old school IOR derived rigs with large headsails and small trim tab mains would have the least penalty.

I obviously agree that in mast is definitely slower, but think there is sometimes a confirmation bias between how much slower based on the fact that very few performance minded sailors would be sailing with one....

I still have to meet one of the few. But an option for furling and performance is in-boom.

 

[geem]

IMHO, that's an over-broad generalisation (Tom Cunliffe: A guide to downwind sailing), it depends on a number of factors, including which system you have.

There are trade-offs with all systems, I think, and the choice depends on your priorities. IMHO, the biggest issues with in-boom are the weight of the boom and its relatively low volume production.

He did a video of his own inboom furling, saying it could not be furled down wind!