Roller reefing main vs stack-pack, advice and tips please.

[Chiara’s slave]

Actually I only temporarily block the halyard only to avoid it snagging around the spreaders. Since I changed the balls in the batten cars from delrin to torlon the only care I have is to let go the halyard slowly, otherwise the whole sail drops in a split second with a giant bang

Ours comes down a bit like that too, until the last (top) 2 battens. It’s good that it slows down, the top batten is at 45 degrees to support the square top. I could see that breaking if the car hit the bottom at speed. We have to remove that one before zipping up. And of course remember to put it in before hoisting.

It’s our 3rd and 4th battens that catch the lazyjacks if they’re going to. Ours are put in from the leech, I can’t see a sail like ours working with luff entry battens. They have tension. I have not seen a multi done that way, there may be a reason. Though I can see the advantage of a smooth leech like DDM has.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Thanks for all the replies, it seems there are a myriad of tips and tricks to handling stack-packs and traditional main sails - not sure I'm up to the challenge however.

Sailing in the Med without an adequate bimini and sprayhood for shade in the cockpit is a non-starter, as is folding up the bimini and dropping the sprayhood to pack/unpack the sail. I do fold them away early and late in the season when the weather is cooler, but 99% of the time they remain up to provide essential shade.

Then there is the problem of the high boom - huge advantage is that it can't smack the cockpit occupants on the head or sweep them overboard ... disadvantage is that it is too high for me to reach for zipping and unzipping sail bags. I had enough of a problem tweaking the leech-line on my last boat which involved standing on the combing on the downwind side of the boat and contorting myself between bimini and sprayhood.

Handling at the mast is also not my preference, we do get occasional nasty weather in the Adriatic, and it's usually rather blustery, squally, unpredictable wind that gets funneled between islands, and short choppy seas that are reflected off the rocks. My last boat, which was a bit smaller at 11,5m got tossed about and pushed over in gusts and the big problem was the unpredictability of the motion - which made going forward an interesting experience. I prefer to stay wedged in the cockpit and operate everything remotely - similarly, going head to wind in a blow is not something I particularly relish. It also freaks my partner out to watch me hopping around on the side decks or swinging from the mast when the weather is bad.

The one thing that was fantastic about the SO409/419 was the sail handling from the helm. Both main and genny sheets plus the genny furler line are brought back to clutch blocks and big winches by the wheels, which were just begging for an electric upgrade. The rope tails are stowed in purpose made bins behind the winches. I could do everything without stepping forward of the wheels and the cockpit was a real leisure space free of ropes and winches. The cabin-top winches were for handling the main so once set-up could pretty much be left alone until the main needed tweaking - add a self-tacking foresail and a furling code zero and it really would be the mutts nuts from a lazy cruising sailors perspective.

I am therefore tending towards another roller furling rig, I think it just suits my style of cruising better - get a set of quality sails, add a folding prop, and it will do me fine. I'm a lazy sod anyway and won't bother sailing unless I can achieve more than 6 knots SOG - I'm also an avid motor-sailer so will happily run on engine and main sail if necessary, beating to windward is not really my thing.

Next up is a look at an Oceanis 41/41.1 and a Dufour 412 ... but the SO 419 is going to be hard to beat IMO. The big plus point was that my sailing partner liked it so much she even suggested we could live on one ... result!! (but for that I might need to go up a size to a 439/449) ...

This was the charter boat we had in Thailand.

 

[geem]

Actually I only temporarily block the halyard only to avoid it snagging around the spreaders, once it's down the cloth barely moves. Since I changed the balls in the batten cars from delrin to torlon the only care I have is to let go the halyard slowly, otherwise the whole sail drops in a split second with a giant bang

We also have no issue as we have Selden batten cars. We added them to our mizzen mast as well. A super easy upgrade that provides a very low friction solution

 

[Roberto]

We also have no issue as we have Selden batten cars. We added them to our mizzen mast as well. A super easy upgrade that provides a very low friction solutionView attachment 173160

I think it's one of those upgrades I would immediately do should I ever buy a boat without them.

 

[AllWinds]

Thanks for all the replies, it seems there are a myriad of tips and tricks to handling stack-packs and traditional main sails - not sure I'm up to the challenge however.

Sailing in the Med without an adequate bimini and sprayhood for shade in the cockpit is a non-starter, as is folding up the bimini and dropping the sprayhood to pack/unpack the sail. I do fold them away early and late in the season when the weather is cooler, but 99% of the time they remain up to provide essential shade.

Then there is the problem of the high boom - huge advantage is that it can't smack the cockpit occupants on the head or sweep them overboard ... disadvantage is that it is too high for me to reach for zipping and unzipping sail bags. I had enough of a problem tweaking the leech-line on my last boat which involved standing on the combing on the downwind side of the boat and contorting myself between bimini and sprayhood.

Handling at the mast is also not my preference, we do get occasional nasty weather in the Adriatic, and it's usually rather blustery, squally, unpredictable wind that gets funneled between islands, and short choppy seas that are reflected off the rocks. My last boat, which was a bit smaller at 11,5m got tossed about and pushed over in gusts and the big problem was the unpredictability of the motion - which made going forward an interesting experience. I prefer to stay wedged in the cockpit and operate everything remotely - similarly, going head to wind in a blow is not something I particularly relish. It also freaks my partner out to watch me hopping around on the side decks or swinging from the mast when the weather is bad.

The one thing that was fantastic about the SO409/419 was the sail handling from the helm. Both main and genny sheets plus the genny furler line are brought back to clutch blocks and big winches by the wheels, which were just begging for an electric upgrade. The rope tails are stowed in purpose made bins behind the winches. I could do everything without stepping forward of the wheels and the cockpit was a real leisure space free of ropes and winches. The cabin-top winches were for handling the main so once set-up could pretty much be left alone until the main needed tweaking - add a self-tacking foresail and a furling code zero and it really would be the mutts nuts from a lazy cruising sailors perspective.

I am therefore tending towards another roller furling rig, I think it just suits my style of cruising better - get a set of quality sails, add a folding prop, and it will do me fine. I'm a lazy sod anyway and won't bother sailing unless I can achieve more than 6 knots SOG - I'm also an avid motor-sailer so will happily run on engine and main sail if necessary, beating to windward is not really my thing.

Next up is a look at an Oceanis 41/41.1 and a Dufour 412 ... but the SO 419 is going to be hard to beat IMO. The big plus point was that my sailing partner liked it so much she even suggested we could live on one ... result!! (but for that I might need to go up a size to a 439/449) ...

This was the charter boat we had in Thailand.

View attachment 173159

If you like the 419, perhaps try the 410. We had one last autumn and it seems to have a lot of what you like about the 419... but it also has a walk-around side deck. The aft winches are mounted on the cockpit coaming, but you can access them from inside the cockpit over the seat or directly from the side deck. The advantage of this is that you are directly at the winch rather than leaning over or kneeling on the cockpit seats, but you are still in a very secure position as the side deck is lowered to the same level as the cockpit floor here which means you are very well protected by a raised gunwhale and the guard wire is at about chest height for me (183cm)

It's the only boat I've sailed with this arrangement and we really liked it. It was also great on night passages as it felt like quite a safe place to go and quickly check the Genoa trim without climbing out on raised-sidedecks.

The boat we had, had slab reefing with a stack pack. Having had a few roller reefing boats in the past I would definitely go for slab reefing and a stack pack on my own boat if I get the choice. (we are currently looking for one)

Cheers
All Winds

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I think it's one of those upgrades I would immediately do should I ever buy a boat without them.

Ours are Fredrikson, ie Ronstan these days. They’re really good, which system fits best is the only question that need be asked.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

If you like the 419, perhaps try the 410. We had one last autumn and it seems to have a lot of what you like about the 419... but it also has a walk-around side deck. The aft winches are mounted on the cockpit coaming, but you can access them from inside the cockpit over the seat or directly from the side deck. The advantage of this is that you are directly at the winch rather than leaning over or kneeling on the cockpit seats, but you are still in a very secure position as the side deck is lowered to the same level as the cockpit floor here which means you are very well protected by a raised gunwhale and the guard wire is at about chest height for me (183cm)

It's the only boat I've sailed with this arrangement and we really liked it. It was also great on night passages as it felt like quite a safe place to go and quickly check the Genoa trim without climbing out on raised-sidedecks.

The boat we had, had slab reefing with a stack pack. Having had a few roller reefing boats in the past I would definitely go for slab reefing and a stack pack on my own boat if I get the choice. (we are currently looking for one)

Cheers
All Winds

A friend chartered a 410 for a cruise in company last year in the Adriatic so I got a good look at the boat ... I loved the walk around side-decks and on deck, the boat was fantastic, but I couldn't get along with the interior layout ... just didn't flow for me like the 409/419 which I guess is more traditional.

 

[Daydream believer]

Our cover has a full length batten on each side.

So has mine but there is still an amount of cloth between batten & zip. With a laminate sail it tends to not want to go into the bag even though the bag is well sized once the sail is in it.

 

[Mike Bryon]

I once sailed an Oyster 435 with in-mast reefing from Crete to Ipswich otherwise I’ve only sailed yachts with slab reefing (some fully battened). My new to me boat has in-mast reefing with vertical battens, she’s a Dawn class 39 and no sluggard. The in-mast system dates from design/build.

In heavy downwind conditions I had quite serious problems with the in-mast system on the Oyster which I suspect was down to a lack of maintenance and a badly out of shape sail. I’m going to give it a season with my new boat to decide whether to change her back to cutter (her original configuration I have all the fittings and sails) and add a batten-less main with negative (concave curved) leach.

I want confidence in the system downwind in strengthening conditions. A slab reefed main can be a challenge in such conditions but I’ve always managed to reduce sail without having to round up and I’m hoping by going batten-less on my new boat I can find a way to reef the main without the need to round up.

I reason the loss of sail area because of the concave leach will be made up by reinstating the staysail and anyway by cruising and not racing.

 

[Tranona]

I once sailed an Oyster 435 with in-mast reefing from Crete to Ipswich otherwise I’ve only sailed yachts with slab reefing (some fully battened). My new to me boat has in-mast reefing with vertical battens, she’s a Dawn class 39 and no sluggard. The in-mast system dates from design/build.

In heavy downwind conditions I had quite serious problems with the in-mast system on the Oyster which I suspect was down to a lack of maintenance and a badly out of shape sail. I’m going to give it a season with my new boat to decide whether to change her back to cutter (her original configuration I have all the fittings and sails) and add a batten-less main with negative (concave curved) leach.

I want confidence in the system downwind in strengthening conditions. A slab reefed main can be a challenge in such conditions but I’ve always managed to reduce sail without having to round up and I’m hoping by going batten-less on my new boat I can find a way to reef the main without the need to round up.

I reason the loss of sail area because of the concave leach will be made up by reinstating the staysail and anyway by cruising and not racing.

It is not necessarily the lower sail area of a battenless mainsail that is the issue, but stability and drive from what you have that affects windward performance. This gets worse as the sail gets older and baggy. I had the original main on my last boat recut after 2 seasons' use as it was going baggy. After another 2 seasons it was really past it and also starting to get difficult to furl. The replacement Vectran was far better, more stable and virtually eliminated the floppy leech. We considered going battened, but all 3 sailmakers who quoted advised against, primarily because of the limited room in the mast section would make furling difficult. As the new sail filled the slot completely it was clear that was a good decision.

However, I suspect your boat is different and a battened sail may work well but you will only find out when you give it a go.

 

[Supertramp]

I once sailed an Oyster 435 with in-mast reefing from Crete to Ipswich otherwise I’ve only sailed yachts with slab reefing (some fully battened). My new to me boat has in-mast reefing with vertical battens, she’s a Dawn class 39 and no sluggard. The in-mast system dates from design/build.

In heavy downwind conditions I had quite serious problems with the in-mast system on the Oyster which I suspect was down to a lack of maintenance and a badly out of shape sail. I’m going to give it a season with my new boat to decide whether to change her back to cutter (her original configuration I have all the fittings and sails) and add a batten-less main with negative (concave curved) leach.

I want confidence in the system downwind in strengthening conditions. A slab reefed main can be a challenge in such conditions but I’ve always managed to reduce sail without having to round up and I’m hoping by going batten-less on my new boat I can find a way to reef the main without the need to round up.

I reason the loss of sail area because of the concave leach will be made up by reinstating the staysail and anyway by cruising and not racing.

You can furl away a main when off the wind but when it's strong (25knts +) I have to reach and spill some wind to furl it. If you start with it part furled then it is much easier. I will often set it with some furls in when off the wind in case I have to reduce sail. Easier on starboard tack than port but that's just my system.

But furling in strong winds and with the sail filled is also the best way for it to go wrong. Depending on your sail you can end up with a fold or crease in the belly of the sail which will normally furl ok but provide a difficult unfurling. Always watch what you're winding in. A big plus if the wind really picks up is to furl away but leave a trysail sized piece which is a lot simpler than setting a storm sail and helps balance the boat off the wind.

Mine came with the boat and is my first boat with it. I don't worry about the performance aspects and am happy to sail with a few turns in the main if it keeps everything manageable and keeps me on a passage plan. I sail to the conditions rather than comparing boat speed, and as a ketch I have plenty of choices. Am I a convert? Not really, but there are some positives in a furling main.

 

[Stemar]

The cloth will collapse & the zip will jam. If you think about it you will notice that one often has to hold the cloth in one hand whilst pulling the zip with the other so that the cloth & zip stays straight.

Once I've got a few inches started, it'd be fine on my boat. I already use a string a couple of feet long without issue

 

[Skylark]

Next up is a look at an Oceanis 41/41.1…….

The boom is extremely high on the 41. Mine is slab reef main. In some circumstances it can be a bit of a challenge to get down and packed but you learn to deal with it. I’ve often wondered about in-mast but usually dismissed the idea.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The boom is extremely high on the 41. Mine is slab reef main. In some circumstances it can be a bit of a challenge to get down and packed but you learn to deal with it. I’ve often wondered about in-mast but usually dismissed the idea.

The SO 409 I chartered was a bit of a shock from the sail handling perspective ... I've used stack-packs often, but the SO was much higher and more inaccessible than anything I'd experienced before - it really put me off - I had roller reefing on my last boat. and have used them on boats from 36 to 46 feet with only the 46 footer causing problems due to a totally worn out sail which was tissue thin and very stretched - it kept jamming by picking up folds when rolling the sail out. With decent sails I've never encountered a problem with roller reefing mains in the last 12-15 years ... with the exception of the 46ft AWB mentioned above.

The Oceanis 41 looks just as high, if not higher ... so I'm resigning myself to the fact that for me, being a short-@rse with an even shorter crew, roller reefing main is probably the way to go - a decent sail paired with a folding prop will do me fine. It really narrows the choice though as most used boats seem to have stack-packs

 

[Whaup367]

At the risk of re-awakening a line of thought that had been put to bed... I return to the suggestion that you consider in-boom furling as an aftermarket option on a used boat (preferably one with a worn out mainsail!!!).
It wouldn't be cheap but would offer the easier sail handling of a furler with less performance compromise than in-mast.

 

[geem]

At the risk of re-awakening a line of thought that had been put to bed... I return to the suggestion that you consider in-boom furling as an aftermarket option on a used boat (preferably one with a worn out mainsail!!!).
It wouldn't be cheap but would offer the easier sail handling of a furler with less performance compromise than in-mast.

In boom furlers are hard on the sails. Expect more sail repairs and shorter life. We see a few American yachts with them retro-fitted. It's quite a common upgrade on that side of the pond. There are challenges with reefing down wind. The couple of guys we know with them, start the engine and motor into the wind to reef and remove reefs.

 

[benjenbav]

From all the experience quoted above, I’d say that if sailing performance is less important than ease of sail handling, in-mast furling looks a good choice; provided the system is reliable.

Given the restriction on choice mentioned by the OP in #54 and the worry that an unknown x y/o furling system might not be robust, perhaps the OP might consider extending their search to include boats where the price allows for scrapping the existing rig and replacing it entirely with up to date, new spars and sails.

 

[Whaup367]

In boom furlers are hard on the sails. Expect more sail repairs and shorter life.

I believe this was an issue with early designs, now addressed.

We see a few American yachts with them retro-fitted. It's quite a common upgrade on that side of the pond. There are challenges with reefing down wind. The couple of guys we know with them, start the engine and motor into the wind to reef and remove reefs.

I don't use the engine to reef. As mentioned previously, the practicalilty of downwind reefing depends on the system: Cunliffe chooses not to but reports that others are happy to.
It's not perfect (I think this thread makes it clear that no system is) but offers a different set of compromises that might suit the OP.
Worth considering, IMHO, even if only to be secure in the knowledge that all options have been.

 

[geem]

I believe this was an issue with early designs, now addressed.

I don't think that is the case. Fundamentally, inmast reefing pulls the sail out of the mast on a mandrel. The load is in one direction on the sail as the sailmis loose footed. . Inboom furling is trying to maintain load in two directions whilst furling/unfurling. There is only so much design can do to solve the problem. I have friends who are .captains on some of the large super yachts that have inboom furling. Money is not a barrier. They can throw as much cash at the design as they want. The reality is that inboom is hard on sails due to the way it furling around the mandrel whilst maintaining tension on cars on the mast. It's a two dimensional load

 

[Baggywrinkle]

At the risk of re-awakening a line of thought that had been put to bed... I return to the suggestion that you consider in-boom furling as an aftermarket option on a used boat (preferably one with a worn out mainsail!!!).
It wouldn't be cheap but would offer the easier sail handling of a furler with less performance compromise than in-mast.

I have considered in-boom ... and I have no fundamental objection.

From what I understand, the position of the boom is critical when operating the furler, if the boom is tilted up or down relative to the mast, then the sail can be damaged at the point where the furled sail meets the mast guide. I have never used in-boom so I have no practical experience to go on - I'm quite happy to accept that it can work and I would certainly view a boat which had it fitted.

I do have to put some restrictions on my boat hunt though. I'm prepared to buy from anywhere in the EU and would consider a U.K. based boat if it was VAT free - so maybe restricting myself to roller furling is a way to cut down the travel bills