Roller reefing main vs stack-pack, advice and tips please.

[johnalison]

It depends where you sail. The UV in the UK is negligible compared to the Caribbean or Med. UV damage to everything out here in the Caribbean is an issue. A sailmaker told me that for every month your Dacron sails are out in the sun, you lose 5% of their strength. We cover our sails immediately after we have anchored up.

I’m not suggesting that one should be reckless with expensive sails, only that a few hours at the end of the day are neither here nor there if you don’t feel like covering them after arrival and are departing in the morning, especially as we are talking about the ends of the day when UV is lower anyway.

 

[geem]

I’m not suggesting that one should be reckless with expensive sails, only that a few hours at the end of the day are neither here nor there if you don’t feel like covering them after arrival and are departing in the morning, especially as we are talking about the ends of the day when UV is lower anyway.

We still cover them ASAP. I have seen UV damaged sails thst tear like tissue paper. We minimise all sun damage here

 

[dansaskip]

Slightly with tongue in check I would suggest that the problem is with the boats design, anyone designing a boat where it is difficult for an average size person cannot easily reach over the boom needs to think again. Maybe a problem with lots of AWBs. Make boats user friendly I say. But more seriously moving the ends of the lazy jacks out from being attached to the mast helps with that problem. Mine are attached halfway out on the spreaders and it certainly helps to avoid snags. I am also a fan of having the main halyard operated at the mast. My main drops fine but dropping the main I can hoop the halyard, which I can easily reach, under the mast mounted winch, pull down and it is secure no flogging about. Also not a fan of in-mast or in-boom reefing. I like to keep things simple. I known people argue that they are reliable these days but when they do go wrong you have a major major problem on your hands.

 

[mjcoon]

Zipping from the mast aft will allow you to close it most of the way from the cabin top and a bit of string on the zip will make it easier to get it the rest of the way.

Could the string on the zip be a continuous loop so it can both open and close from anywhere?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Could the string on the zip be a continuous loop so it can both open and close from anywhere?

That would be a cunning stunt as long as there wasn't too much friction.

 

[jaminb]

Hook your halyard round a bull horn and put some tension on and cleat off, this will pull it down and stop it flying out until you stop and tidy everything up (don't leave it like this as it will chink on the mast).

I put a preventer on the mid cleat from the main sheet boom connection and pull the main sheet against that, dont be tempted to tie on to the hand rails as I always thought they might snap off.

When raising the sail set the autopilot to motor directly into the wind and then push the boom one way or another as you haul up. Once you get the hang of it you can get it straight up with no snags.

 

[Roberto]

, anyone designing a boat where it is difficult for an average size person cannot easily reach over the boom needs to think again.

Despite making it more difficult to work on the boom end, I prefer a higher boom which sweeps clear of heads of people standing in the cockpit. Have had an Olympic class Star boat with the boom literally a few cm over the cockpit, had to snake below the boom at every tack, a jibe with any wind (the boat has runners and no backstay) had a flavour of attempted murder

I am also a fan of having the main halyard operated at the mast. My main drops fine but dropping the main I can hoop the halyard, which I can easily reach, under the mast mounted winch, pull down and it is secure no flogging about.

+1, halyards, reefing lines etc all at the mast.
I have the same OP problem of a very high mainsail headboard, too many batten travelers maybe, I keep a small boathook nearby, it's about 50cm long, grab the halyard and pass it under the reefing hook.

 

[B27]

Could the string on the zip be a continuous loop so it can both open and close from anywhere?

Every stackpack I've had, the zip comes apart completely when the sail is up.

Personally, when I drop the sail, I tie the boom over to one side. The clew area is then easy to access by standing on the cockpit seat. But I have no bimini.

It sounds feasible to engage the zip at the gooseneck end and pull it back using a loop through a block secured to the backstay...

As it happens, my stackpack zips the other way, but it's a simple type with a separate little 'sail coat' to cover the forward end of the sail.
I'm now wondering if I could put it back on the other way around and rig the ziip with a loop...?

 

[Supertramp]

A boat with a tweaky fractional rig, like the Elan 333, is the very worst to be using in in-mast.

Old school IOR derived rigs with large headsails and small trim tab mains would have the least penalty.

I obviously agree that in mast is definitely slower, but think there is sometimes a confirmation bias between how much slower based on the fact that very few performance minded sailors would be sailing with one....

Well put, and I would add that the type of hull and keel is important.

You could fit the very best sails to my heavy, long shallow keeled boat and it will still not perform well to windward.

As Tranona says, on passage (and assuming a favourable wind) it makes less difference.

Then the benefits of simpler sail handling make more sense.

I prefer slab reefing/stackpack but only if I can use it safely.

 

[geem]

+1, halyards, reefing lines etc all at the mast.
I have the same OP problem of a very high mainsail headboard, too many batten travelers maybe, I keep a small boathook nearby, it's about 50cm long, grab the halyard and pass it under the reefing hook.
View attachment 173146
[/QUOTE]
If you thread a 6mm line from the headboard, down through each reef spectacle, you have a downhaul. In blustery conditions. You can fix it to a cleat to stop the sail going up on its own. Its also handy when reefing down wind. You can stick it on a winch at the mast and haul the sail down to the reef when it has some wind in it

 

[mjcoon]

Every stackpack I've had, the zip comes apart completely when the sail is up.

Now you've reminded me, the only arrangement I can recollect (never had a boat of my own) is that when the sail is up the zip slider is way beyond the end of the boom on a bit of zip that extends beyond the stack-pack. So though the zip does not have to be re-engaged like on a jacket, the joined-up end has to be pulled out beyond the boom-end before the zip can be pulled towards the mast. So the looped string would not work to start with...

 

[Boathook]

Now you've reminded me, the only arrangement I can recollect (never had a boat of my own) is that when the sail is up the zip slider is way beyond the end of the boom on a bit of zip that extends beyond the stack-pack. So though the zip does not have to be re-engaged like on a jacket, the joined-up end has to be pulled out beyond the boom-end before the zip can be pulled towards the mast. So the looped string would not work to start with...

Mines like that. I can though reach the zip and once it is "on" the stack pack it is fairly easy to pull along. My big problem is that I had a new main and reused the stack pack as it was in good condition. I'm still training the new main to pack away like the old one and fit easily in the stack pack !

 

[Tranona]

Just a reminder of the boat the OP was sailing and is thinking of buying for cruising in the Med with his partner. It was one of these.
yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/2014-jeanneau-sun-odyssey-409-9247513/

So I doubt he will be worried about crashing to windward around the Western Isles, or about whether others will overtake him. Things that work on a speedy tri rushing up and down the Solent or on a Vancouver 28, Twister, or IRO rigged 1980s cruiser racer are probably not directly relevant. Just a glance at the first photo in the listing will show how impractical the suggestion is to drop the bimini every time the mainsail is raised, let alone stand on the cockpit table to zip up the stack pack. The boat is not available with in boom furling - nor indeed is any comparable boat. If it really were the answer at least one of the mass builders would offer it - but they don't and the after market offerings, apart from (or because of) being expensive have never made any headway in the 30 odd years they have been on the market.

The reality is that as demonstrated by all the "trick" suggestions here, making conventional slab reefing mains work effectively from a handling point of view on this type of boat is a challenge which maybe explains why roughly one third of the Jeanneau 40 footers for sale in this listing have in mast furling rigs. It is even higher with other brands - 90% of HRs over 38' have inmast - indeed the latest 80 footer has it rather than in boom as is common on that size boat. Christopher Rassey justifies it by saying it is simple (comparitively!) well developed and idiot proof.

The challenge with in mast is not the handling of the sail, but designing a sail to get the best balance of performance and long life. This type of boat is not intended for "tweakers" in the form that most people buy it and just having the sail made from one of the better more stable cloths like Vectran that I had will give performance comparable to the cheap sails that come as OE in slab reef form. Spend more on vertical battens might make sailing feel a bit better, but in reality as I and others have pointed out in cruising mode it would be difficult to identify any improvement in passage time. Better spend the money on a folding or feathering propeller if shorter passage times are the goal.

BTW I think I am right in saying that only myself and one other contributor to this thread have actually owned boats with in mast, in my case 2 of them over 20 years. Just saying....

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Mines like that. I can though reach the zip and once it is "on" the stack pack it is fairly easy to pull along. My big problem is that I had a new main and reused the stack pack as it was in good condition. I'm still training the new main to pack away like the old one and fit easily in the stack pack !

Ours is like a sock on a chicken’s leg for that very reason. It may not be the tidiest, but it does up easily, and we could get a stiffer sail into it.

 

[Whaup367]

<very informative post deleted for brevity>

...BTW I think I am right in saying that only myself and one other contributor to this thread have actually owned boats with in mast, in my case 2 of them over 20 years. Just saying....

FWIW, I have in-boom on my boat (36') and am happy with it.
Appreciate that's no help to the OP, if they are stuck with factory options that don't include it.

 

[Daydream believer]

My boat is only 31 ft & i am much taller than the Op so i do not have the height issues.
I do not have problems hoisting the mainsail between the lazyjacks,( once head to wind) because of the way they are set ( I never adjust throughout the season). Whilst they go to the second spreader & well out to the end of the boom they are set so the sail quickly clears them on the hoist. It is just a matter of correct set up.

My battens are inserted from the car end & do not project past the leech of the sail. So they do not snag. One needs to speak to the sail maker.

My zip starts at the mast. Being single handed I go forward to drop the sail & start the zip there. I zip up as I go back to the cockpit. It saves a journey back & forth.
When leaving port or when dropping the sail in rough weather I have 4 straps in the cover near the front third. These hold the sail in place so the zip can be released completely but the sail retained in place. They consist of a ball on a string one side & a string loop the other. The ball goes through the loop. So to hoist the sail I just go forward & flip the loops. When dropping in rough weather I am tall enough to lay over the boom & hook them in one handed, leaving the zipping until later. They are set so they take the tension off the zip & it makes zipping easier. Of course the OP cannot do that, having duck's disease

The halyard (once caught) passes round a hook on the spinnaker ring then a bight of it is taken to the shroud where a short cord holds it clear of the mast. I never undo the halyard. That is a recipe for disaster. Lots of people suggest down haul lines. But I would be fearful of the line getting snagged aloft in, say, the spreader/mast butt joint, or round the steaming light. Then one might not get the sail down. What happens then. . The suggestion of a short fibreglass rod, with a hooked end, stored by the mast (ready to snag the genny sheet when tacking ) seems a sensible idea.

As for the swinging boom. I have a short dynema line fixed to the backstay with a hook. This engages the end of the boom. At night I can ease the topping lift & it carries the weight of the boom to stop annoying vibration. It also stops wear when i am not on the boat. Just depends how far the end of the boom is from the backstay & if the OP can reach it.

As for getting past a sprayhood. I do not do camping & having been on a 41 ft Jeneau & a Hanse 311 with one, I cannot imagine anything more likely to cause back injury on a boat. Most useless thing known to man next to a snuffer.

 

[Stemar]

Could the string on the zip be a continuous loop so it can both open and close from anywhere?

I think I might steal that idea

 

[Daydream believer]

I think I might steal that idea

The cloth will collapse & the zip will jam. If you think about it you will notice that one often has to hold the cloth in one hand whilst pulling the zip with the other so that the cloth & zip stays straight.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The cloth will collapse & the zip will jam. If you think about it you will notice that one often has to hold the cloth in one hand whilst pulling the zip with the other so that the cloth & zip stays straight.

Our cover has a full length batten on each side.

 

[Roberto]

If you thread a 6mm line from the headboard, down through each reef spectacle, you have a downhaul. In blustery conditions. You can fix it to a cleat to stop the sail going up on its own. Its also handy when reefing down wind. You can stick it on a winch at the mast and haul the sail down to the reef when it has some wind in it

Actually I only temporarily block the halyard only to avoid it snagging around the spreaders, once it's down the cloth barely moves. Since I changed the balls in the batten cars from delrin to torlon the only care I have is to let go the halyard slowly, otherwise the whole sail drops in a split second with a giant bang