Selden continuous in mast main reefing line slipping

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superboots

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When I bought my boat there was no reefing line at the mast - just the winch. Eventually I got round to fitting one when I changed the clutches. However very soon after the line started to slip on the mast winch. I have used 10 mm braid on braid as required by Selden. It has a soft outer cover which might explain the slippage. It needs quite a bit of effort to furl (luff is about 14m ) which could be another reason. Any ideas how I can rectify this. It's a bore to have to replace the line but its also a chore to to reef at the mast
 
On my last boat I had this same setup. I found that the line used to slip on the mast winch if I allowed it to become too slack when operating the winch. But if I kept a gentle tension on the lazy tail of the line, just enough to stop it getting slack on the winch, I had no problems. That was even if I used a cockpit winch on the tensioned part of the line.

I'm not saying this necessarily will work for you and possibly you've tried it already.

One consequence of slipping is of course that you think you've got the mainsail well reefed but, if you rely on the reefing line in a clutch to stop the winch from turning and thus releasing the sail, the line can slip on the winch in a gust and let the reef out in a rush. In light winds it can be sufficient to keep both ends of the reefing line tensioned, but I didn't like to rely on that, I engaged the non-return ratchet on the mast winch, then the sail couldn't un-reef even if the reefing line was slack.

My standard drill was to keep the ratchet engaged except when the sail was fully furled and I was expecting to unfurl it, for example on leaving a mooring. Then, once the sail was set I'd pop up to the mast and set the ratchet. That meant I could reef at any time without needing to go to the mast again. Also it was no hindrance to putting the sail away from my position in the cockpit. The only minor inconvenience was that I needed to go to the mast to unset the ratchet before 'shaking out' a reef.
 
I have the same setup as the OP, and I've never had his problem. My furling line goes through umpteen little fairleads, and round several pulleys, and the two clutches. Maybe all the friction makes sure that there is always plenty of tension on the drum. I have never furled at the mast, and never felt the need to fiddle with the ratchet at the mast.
 
superboots said:
When I bought my boat there was no reefing line at the mast - just the winch. Eventually I got round to fitting one when I changed the clutches. However very soon after the line started to slip on the mast winch. I have used 10 mm braid on braid as required by Selden. It has a soft outer cover which might explain the slippage. It needs quite a bit of effort to furl (luff is about 14m ) which could be another reason. Any ideas how I can rectify this. It's a bore to have to replace the line but its also a chore to to reef at the mast
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We had a Selden in boom reefing system but never had any problem with slippage. However we had the main halyard and 2 of the 3 reefing lines taken to the cockpit and never used the mast based clutches nor winches for reefing. Reefing was all done in the cockpit and we really seldom used the 1st reef, if we needed to reef we put in the second reef.

Is it the complete line that is slipping or the core slipping inside the loose cover?

A slipping core is/was common place for large, unstayed, headsails (which have large halyard tensions) and a solution was to have 3 wraps round the winch and don't use, rely on, a clutch (as the core slips inside the loose outer sheath. The sheath is secured but not the core). As the sheath was then taking more tension than designed, the sheath failed - and the core slipped big time.

The 3 turns round the drum seemed to be the solution - but then you lost use of that specific winch.

I think cordage has also become better.

It should be possible to alter or adding to the lines in the cockpit so that the third reef can be put in easily. If you need a 3rd reef you do not need to have crew at the mast. For reefs one and two accessing the mast will be more sensible than for reef 3. If you mark the main halyard for reefs 1, 2 and 3 you know exactly how much halyard to drop for each reef (no winch needed) and you only need one winch to put in the third reef.

If any of the running rigging is slipping it is suffering wear and abrasion, that might not be visible. I'd retire the line that has potentially been damaged and use it for sheets, when the current sheets are damaged. I'd replace the line that has been slipping for a new one.

We discarded Seldon's reefing system for the 3rd reef, too much friction, and replaced it with single line reefing, small blocks on the sail. Lots of rope but easily taken in by hand, except for the last few metres. Only the last few metres were 10mm - most of the line was 6mm dyneema (to keep the friction down). So - dump the halyard to the 3 reef mark, take in all the loose reefing line by hand, maybe take the last 2 metres with the cockpit winch and then tighten the main halyard with that same winch.

Jonathan
 
The Selden in mast furling system has a grooved wheel, similar to the one on a self-tailing winch. The line is in contact for 180°, and there is no provision for having more turns.
 
NormanS said:
The Selden in mast furling system has a grooved wheel, similar to the one on a self-tailing winch. The line is in contact for 180°, and there is no provision for having more turns.
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My error

The OP mentioned a reefing line and a mast based winch. No mention of in mast furling. I erroneously assumed he was talking of Seldens 'in boom' reefing.

Jonathan
 
This is a common issue with many who have the Selden in-mast system. Our local rigger told me when I queried the problem when we first had our current boat to keep some tension on the unfurl when furling and engage the ratchet once the sail is deployed so if there is slack in the line, the sail won't self unfurl. This has worked well for us similar to system used by jbweston.
 
New braid on braid is often slippy at first. It does take a bit of time to lose that slightly oily feeling to it. Do make sure that the bevel gears and bearings are well free and greased as these can make quite a difference that you will not necessarily notice at the winch. Also make sure you have the boom on the Port side when furling.
 
Aquanaught said:
This is a common issue with many who have the Selden in-mast system. Our local rigger told me when I queried the problem when we first had our current boat to keep some tension on the unfurl when furling and engage the ratchet once the sail is deployed so if there is slack in the line, the sail won't self unfurl. This has worked well for us similar to system used by jbweston.
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When I bought the boat I'd been looking for a similar one with slab reefing as it was what I was used to and there were stories around about how in-mast could be a load of trouble. I was advised that as I was getting older and would soon be decrepit (it was put more politely than that) that I'd get on fine with the in-mast furling on the boat that was available and exactly the spec I was looking for apart from the reefing.

I'm glad I had it. Very few problems once I got the hang of it. Once I got it jammed partly furled - my own fault for allowing the sail to roll away slack and folds developed and bulked it up. The solution is not to allow excessive slack on the outhaul while furling. Also take the trouble at the start of each season to get the topping lift set well and then don't let anyone move it.

I think there is a general rule that allowing excessive slack on any line can cause trouble. For example when slipping mooring lines, too slack a lazy jib sheet or flag halliard, or letting the sheets flog around while roller-furling a jib.
 
Same system and we've largely given up on using the furling line and switched to reefing and furling at the mast. Even when the line isn't slipping I can get the sail away substantially faster at the mast and with less grinding and less flogging. We always have the winch locked once the sail is out, you really can't rely on the reefing line to hold a reefed sail in place.
 
My continuous line passes through two clutches, one for "in" and one for "out". Provided that both parts of the line are tight, and the clutches locked, thus ensuring that the line is tight on the driving wheel at the mast, I can select any degree of reef without any fear of more sail coming out. Do those who have a problem with unwanted sail coming out from the mast when reefed, have and use two clutches?
If you have to go up to the mast to furl, unfurl or reef, you're not getting the full benefit of the system.
 
NormanS said:
See the heading of the post. 🙂
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Yes I saw that but it seemed to contradict what he said in his opening post - where no mention was made of the title.

As I freely admitted - I got it wrong - most of us get it wrong at some time but if you want help on a Forum its not too difficult to make it clear - it is to the OP's benefit.

Apologies.

Jonathan
 
NormanS said:
My continuous line passes through two clutches, one for "in" and one for "out". Provided that both parts of the line are tight, and the clutches locked, thus ensuring that the line is tight on the driving wheel at the mast, I can select any degree of reef without any fear of more sail coming out. Do those who have a problem with unwanted sail coming out from the mast when reefed, have and use two clutches?
If you have to go up to the mast to furl, unfurl or reef, you're not getting the full benefit of the system.
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Yes, we used two clutches and did our best to always keep it tight. 99% of the time it doesn't slip, but sometimes it does and I'd rather reduce the odds to zero than deal with a suddenly full sail in strong winds. The previous owner of our boat ripped their mainsail twice due to uncontrolled unfurling.

Furling at the mast I can put the whole sail away in 30 seconds including the return trip from the cockpit. Much slower at the cockpit winch and the increased friction makes it harder to keep good tension on the outhaul.
 
I have the same (Selden) system as Norman S, and it works fine, albeit with a lot of friction as described. I have experimented with the furling line and settled on a slightly thinner line but with an "old fashioned" fluffy outer rather than shiny standard type. Never had it slip even in considerable winds.

Trying different lines may help and will make you expert at endless splices!
 
Thanks for the comments. I was not aware about the port side rule so will comply next time. As I am getting on in years I want to minimise risks such as can come from winching at the cockpit but it seems I may have to.
 
superboots said:
Thanks for the comments. I was not aware about the port side rule so will comply next time. As I am getting on in years I want to minimise risks such as can come from winching at the cockpit but it seems I may have to.
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That is stressed in the Selden instructions as the slot is shaped for the sail to go in from that side straight onto the mandrel. With both my Bavarias I had the lines set up so that the furling line was on starboard and the outhaul on port using the clutch closest to the centreline. It was for me easy to control the tension when furling. A turn round the winch drum can help. However they were smaller boats (37 and 33) so it may be a bit of a stretch for you
 
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