RIN / MAIB "digital navigation" webinar Nov 16th

[Roberto]

I had registered some time ago I completely forgot, anyway I just received this reminder from the Comms email address of the RIN. It may be of some interest for anyone, details on the RIN web site.
https://rin.org.uk/events/eventdetails.aspx?id=1759581
There is another scheduled one about Autonomous Vessels I will skip


Thank you once again for registering to join our webinar on 16th November 2023 at 1100 GMT on "The Marine Accident Investigation Branch: lessons for contemporary digital navigation" with David C Robertson, Inspector of Marine Accidents, MAIB.

 

[jlavery]

I'm signed up, should be interesting.

 

[lustyd]

Presumably they mean commercial navigation rather than leisure though?

 

[jlavery]

Presumably they mean commercial navigation rather than leisure though?

Well, they investigate leisure incidents too, and lessons learned could well apply to leisure users of electronic navigation. We'll see!

 

[st599]

Presumably they mean commercial navigation rather than leisure though?

RIN have just published the requirements for leisure chartplotters for when paper charts are no longer available.

 

[jlavery]

RIN have just published the requirements for leisure chartplotters for when paper charts are no longer available.

That's interesting. Is there a publicly available link?

 

[requiem]

RIN have just published the requirements for leisure chartplotters for when paper charts are no longer available.

It's good to hear, but it is still very unfortunate that it was not done years before, as part of the transition to ENCs.

 

[dunedin]

It's good to hear, but it is still very unfortunate that it was not done years before, as part of the transition to ENCs.

I believe there was an an attempt at that time - Mini ECDIS - Mini Electronic Chart Display and Information System

Before my involvement in these things, but I believe it was over complex and hence unsuccessful. Not adopted by any of the major leisure craft navigation suppliers.

 

[requiem]

Before my involvement in these things, but I believe it was over complex and hence unsuccessful. Not adopted by any of the major leisure craft navigation suppliers.

Thank you for the link! I am somehow unsurprised that it would have been complex, l'ennemi du bien est le bien and so forth. (I also wonder to what extent it would tank the market for 3rd party charts.)

From a glance at the performance standards from your link, I'd expect most ECS software should tick most of the boxes.

 

[dunedin]

RIN have just published the requirements for leisure chartplotters for when paper charts are no longer available.

As jlavery asks, is there a link to such a document on the RIN website ? I am aware of a draft document of that nature, but not yet seen published.

There was of course the RIN Electronic Navigation Systems Booklet published in late 2020 / early 2021 which many including the Cruising Association contributed to (and has been posted on here a number of times) - https://rin.org.uk/page/ENavRec

 

[st599]

https://rin.org.uk/resource/resmgr/groupresources/smallcraft/Proposal_for_EN_system_Rev6_.pdf

 

[dunedin]

https://rin.org.uk/resource/resmgr/groupresources/smallcraft/Proposal_for_EN_system_Rev6_.pdf

Thanks - that is the one I referred to as being "aware of" but hadn't spotted on the RIN website.

Some great suff in there.

 

[st599]

I believe there was an an attempt at that time - Mini ECDIS - Mini Electronic Chart Display and Information System

Before my involvement in these things, but I believe it was over complex and hence unsuccessful. Not adopted by any of the major leisure craft navigation suppliers.

Not sure most yacht plotter could provide the redundant power supplies, screen size, backup and GNSS features that required.

I see that Tom Cunliffe's new plotter AngelNav allows the position to be calculated and used via non-GNSS means (three point fix, running fix etc.) - so hopefully that will start to filter in to the mainstream too.

 

[jlavery]

Not sure most yacht plotter could provide the redundant power supplies, screen size, backup and GNSS features that required.

I see that Tom Cunliffe's new plotter AngelNav allows the position to be calculated and used via non-GNSS means (three point fix, running fix etc.) - so hopefully that will start to filter in to the mainstream too.

Yes, that's one interesting point regarding AngelNav - the ability to establish position without GNSS.

Disclaimer - I'm working with them on porting it to Android (and along the way, it should work on Windows too).

 

[lustyd]

What's the point of doing a three point fix on a plotter though (for leisure use)? Surely better to confirm bearings to objects by tapping them to get range and bearing then check with a hand bearing compass?

 

[dunedin]

Not sure most yacht plotter could provide the redundant power supplies, screen size, backup and GNSS features that required.

I see that Tom Cunliffe's new plotter AngelNav allows the position to be calculated and used via non-GNSS means (three point fix, running fix etc.) - so hopefully that will start to filter in to the mainstream too.

It meets the requirement 10.3 in the document st599 gave a link to. To my knowledge the only leisure craft navigation app able to do so.
(Though not sure how much Tom C had to do with the app development other than giving his name to generate publicity? The other name on their website is Bill Alyward who I suspect had a much larger role in creating the app.)

 

[st599]

What's the point of doing a three point fix on a plotter though (for leisure use)? Surely better to confirm bearings to objects by tapping them to get range and bearing then check with a hand bearing compass?

Because it's a requirement of systems that can be used by coded vessels, like sailing schools. You have to be able to establish positions independent of GNSS, plot those positions and use that position in the system as if it were a GNSS position.

It's in ECDIS and mini-ECDIS and according to the IMO needs to be in whatever post-paper chart world we end up in. It's one of the reasons that cartplotters flash up "Not for Navigation" on start up. We need to get to a point where they meet all the legal requirements to be used for navigation.

 

[lustyd]

Because it's a requirement

That answers a very different question. I do understand that a committee has decided to put that into the requirements. I imagine that committee room was very much like the YBW forums with a similar demographic.

My question I guess should have been what's the benefit. It doesn't add anything useful for leisure use, and it adds very little for commercial use in practice aside from assuming there's no other equipment on board.

 

[Pye_End]

Occasionally my plotter shows my position - but is some distance (sometimes critical) away from where I am according to the built in chart. I can understand how handy occasionally drawing electronic lines on an chart would be. If you don't want to use the features - don't use them - but why stop other people wanting to them? I am glad that Tom Cunliffe seems to be pushing development of apps in this direction - all the ones I have seen are a bit simplistic and no sign of this type of development.

 

[jlavery]

Occasionally my plotter shows my position - but is some distance (sometimes critical) away from where I am according to the built in chart. I can understand how handy occasionally drawing electronic lines on an chart would be. If you don't want to use the features - don't use them - but why stop other people wanting to them? I am glad that Tom Cunliffe seems to be pushing development of apps in this direction - all the ones I have seen are a bit simplistic and no sign of this type of development.

This is an important consideration. When either the GPS is lagging or inaccurate, or the chart is not aligned to the GPS datum/projection (rare these days), then the ability to fix position by bearing etc. is essential. Also a core requirement for pilotage.

Currently no (or very few?) leisure plotters have this facility.