RIN / MAIB "digital navigation" webinar Nov 16th

[st599]

But that's my point, what we currently have is fit for purpose for leisure sailing

Not according to the relevant authorities - all plotters curerntly have a "Not for Navigation" warning on start up.

Without an agreement for how we move forwards, that means coded users such as charities, sailing schools, clubs would need to install a £25k ECDIS with secondary power supply, multiple GNSS systems, large screen, satellite backup etc. by 2030. (And that's assuming that insurers are happy for non-coded vessels to rely on an item marked "not for navigation")

 

[lustyd]

Not according to the relevant authorities - all plotters curerntly have a "Not for Navigation" warning on start up.

What part of "for leisure use" is troublesome? You're still talking about commercial use and responding to my post which explicitly says leisure use. I've not mentioned commercial use once in the thread. If you want a mid tier for small commercial then fill your boots, but my point stands that there is no need to make such things a requirement for leisure use. In leisure use there's no obligation to do navigation at all, so applying arbitrary conditions on leisure tools would be ridiculous, although I'm sure the committees will do their best.

 

[st599]

In leisure use there's no obligation to do navigation at all

That's not correct, according to the RYA the following part of SOLAS V applies to leisure vessels.

Prior to proceeding to sea, the master shall ensure that the intended voyage has been planned using the appropriate nautical charts and nautical publications for the area concerned, taking into account the guidelines and recommendations developed by the Organization.
RYA Note: Skippers should note that this regulation changes the status of passage planning on small boats from simply good practice to a requirement under UK law for vessels proceeding to sea

As said up-thread, current chartplotters do not legally count as appropriate nautical charts, so the change is needed for leisure as well as commercial.

 

[lustyd]

Well I guess I and every other sailor in the UK had better hand ourselves in to the authorities then

Even more important in that case not to put unnecessary requirements on plotters

 

[DFL1010]

Well I guess I and every other sailor in the UK had better hand ourselves in to the authorities then

Even more important in that case not to put unnecessary requirements on plotters

Sure. Now we've just got to define 'unnecessary requirements' in the context of plotters.

I'm sure that won't take too long.

 

[Pye_End]

But that's my point, what we currently have is fit for purpose for leisure sailing,

A surprisingly unprogressive comment. Surely change is always good?

A passage a couple of months ago comes to mind. Garmin plotter unusually completely froze up. Ok, moved to back-up (tablet), which then refused to load up (again, unusual). Plan C is a pile of paper charts, and the knowledge/experience to use them. A while later after re-booting etc etc both devices acted normally. Could have been different. Very remote chance of both things happening on the same trip - but as Pratchet reminds us, it is the million to one chance that means it will happen. Got a few other lat and long devices, but useless without charts or plotters.

The accounts clerk at my last place NEVER trusted technology. She always checked tax updates using good old fashioned tables. What a waste of time. The accounts software people test everything before market, and tax updates. Wrong. She was the one that picked up on a significant issue, and the software lot had to do an emergency update just in time for the new year. People trust a screen and a load of software (eg Post Office). I've never had absolute faith in software since.

Loads of reasons why plotters, electrics. electronics can go wrong (indeed you could also lose a paper chart over the side I suppose). It might not have happened to you, but doesn't mean to say it can't happen. They are all amazingly good, but they are not full-proof.

 

[lustyd]

Sure. Now we've just got to define 'unnecessary requirements' in the context of plotters.

I'm sure that won't take too long.

Well, we don't want them to be so expensive and complex that the average weekend sailor can't buy or use them.

A surprisingly unprogressive comment. Surely change is always good?

Not always, no. Things can, and often do get worse with change, especially when committees are making those changes and trying to be as thorough as they can

 

[requiem]

It is, but it's the DR functionality that's required to make the system allowed for navigation.

Hmm... this is something I'd personally put in the "unnecessary requirements" box; being able to mark own ship as in DR mode, and perhaps manually reposition it should be sufficient. Not that I wouldn't mind it extending a track out, but it seems a bit of gold-plating, particularly if I might want to add my own leeway estimates in.

I'm sorry but this suggests you don't do much electronic navigation. Putting in a waypoint is the way to do clearing bearings with modern kit. You don't have to be following a route to do this.

Waypoints are a terrible kludge for this, as well as being non-specific. (Was it a turning point? Was it where the crab pot was dropped? Was it left over from another route?) A labeled line is clear and simple compared to a screen littered with waypoints.

No, I don't think they're at any risk at all. The likelihood of all of the major GNSS systems going down at once is infinitesimally small in all but world war scenarios (and you won't be sailing then!).

I'd hope most here can cope without it, and personally I suspect it's more likely the onboard GNSS receivers fail than the system. (Which is something I hear of every so often, and the delivery skipper then reverts to their phone, etc). But, when that happens it also means you're now navigating on that other device rather than the plotter, rather than continuing to use the plotter with the benefit of a backup GNSS receiver.

Secondly, it would be almost impossible for the batteries or device to cause me to lose position. Any given boat in 2023 is likely to have 2 plotters, a couple of phones, watches, tablets, all of which have GNSS positioning.

I agree on the batteries; it makes sense for small boat nav standards to acknowledge the prevalence of mobile devices with integral batteries rather than maintaining a fixation on certifying hardware. If you have sufficient battery and fall-back power options, it should be viable.

As for the phones, watches, etc, that depends on whom you sail with. I don't think standards should assume their presence, but I do think they should allow for a plotter to accept such positioning data manually should the onboard receiver fail.

 

[dunedin]

I see that there is a separate RIN Webinar on 22nd November by their Small Craft Group and specifically on the topic of updating their Electronic Navigation Systems Guidance Booklet. Link here -
Small Craft Group - Electronic Navigation Systems

 

[finestgreen]

Have people given up using the Mark I eyeball?

Once I am into a complex pilotage the last thing I look at is the plotter. A wee bit of paper with the buoyage or marks I am using with distances, bearings and a calculated time between each mark is what I use. On simple pilotages it is all done in my head.

p.s. I am a past RIN member.

Harder to generate that pilotage plan from a plotter than a paper chart though, at least for any plotter I've used

 

[Sandy]

Was this any good? I had another online meeting and was unable to attend. I am sure it was far more interesting than the GDPR event I needed to saw for the 5,001 time!

 

[dunedin]

Was this any good? I had another online meeting and was unable to attend. I am sure it was far more interesting than the GDPR event I needed to saw for the 5,001 time!

Yes, was very interesting - in terms of learning about how MAIB works. And a few fascinating titbits on large ships crashing into solid Scottish islands - shown clearly on charts and with operating lighthouse. Ditto over size ship existing Needles Channel and ignoring chart plotter which clearly showed being off track and impending meeting with shallows.
Little of direct relevance of this session to most leisure craft, as that was not the focus. The one on 22nd November listed on post #49 should be much more relevant for our needs.

 

[Roberto]

Yes, was very interesting - in terms of learning about how MAIB works. And a few fascinating titbits on large ships crashing into solid Scottish islands - shown clearly on charts and with operating lighthouse. Ditto over size ship existing Needles Channel and ignoring chart plotter which clearly showed being off track and impending meeting with shallows.
Little of direct relevance of this session to most leisure craft, as that was not the focus. The one on 22nd November listed on post #49 should be much more relevant for our needs.

+1
exactly so, about one half of the webinar was a general presentation of "MAIB: who, why, when, how etc", quite interesting I did not know they are a sort of task force, some of them always ready with a 2 hour notice; then some examples related to ECDIS of big ships.

Oh, they (the RIN) said the recorded webinar will be available on their Youtube channel.

 

[[194224]]

The proper and effective use of ECDIS was the key message, failure to use it properly seemed to be a common theme. Chart updates downloaded but not applied, false sense of security from having ECDIS, following previously used electronic tracks but not accounting for different drafts, tidal streams, tidal heights. Safety features of ECDIS including audible alarms not used. Paper charts carried but only for tick the box compliance.

There was one question raised in the Q&A which was perhaps relevant to this forum but the presenter really wasn't able to give a helpful response as it isn't within the realm of the MAIB to be fair. I hope it is readable, it's a small part of a screenshot. Time to reach for the reading glasses.

 

[Sandy]

Yes, was very interesting - in terms of learning about how MAIB works. And a few fascinating titbits on large ships crashing into solid Scottish islands - shown clearly on charts and with operating lighthouse. Ditto over size ship existing Needles Channel and ignoring chart plotter which clearly showed being off track and impending meeting with shallows.
Little of direct relevance of this session to most leisure craft, as that was not the focus. The one on 22nd November listed on post #49 should be much more relevant for our needs.

Thanks @dunedin I think Claire mentioned it will be available on YouTube. It will be interesting to see how they say they work.

 

[SaltyC]

As previously stated It was interesting to learn about MAIB and its remit, including the on call team.
The concern for me were the avoidable errors made by 'professionals' solely reliant on electronics but not having alarm parameters, updates etc correctly set up and installed.
What chance does the average leisure sailir have who uses it once a month?

 

[dunedin]

The proper and effective use of ECDIS was the key message, failure to use it properly seemed to be a common theme. Chart updates downloaded but not applied, false sense of security from having ECDIS, following previously used electronic tracks but not accounting for different drafts, tidal streams, tidal heights. Safety features of ECDIS including audible alarms not used. Paper charts carried but only for tick the box compliance.

There was one question raised in the Q&A which was perhaps relevant to this forum but the presenter really wasn't able to give a helpful response as it isn't within the realm of the MAIB to be fair. I hope it is readable, it's a small part of a screenshot. Time to reach for the reading glasses.

I think that question is better posed to the RIN small craft webinar coming up next week, link above (poss #49?)

 

[dunedin]

As previously stated It was interesting to learn about MAIB and its remit, including the on call team.
The concern for me were the avoidable errors made by 'professionals' solely reliant on electronics but not having alarm parameters, updates etc correctly set up and installed.
What chance does the average leisure sailir have who uses it once a month?

One clear issue was excessive warning messages on ECDIS - eg about 500 on one shortish route in Scotland. Hence tendency simply to rapid click accept on all of them without taking time to spot the really important ones buried within the dross - like your route will make you crash into a large rocky island!

Analogous to, but much more serious than, the excess DSC noisy alerts that makes some yachties either simply cancel all DSC messages without looking, or even switch off the VHF.

 

[requiem]

What chance does the average leisure sailir have who uses it once a month?

Probably better, since the leisure sailor probably likely isn't working under as great a task load (i.e. pile of paperwork to complete before making the next port), and doesn't have so many alarms to switch off. For me, the question is which professional practices may be useful to the leisure sailor.

 

[lustyd]

For me, the question is which professional practices may be useful to the leisure sailor.

Unfortunately that’s how we end up with inappropriate systems since committees will work in exactly that way rather than asking what leisure sailors actually need. DSC is a great example of how this has gone wrong in the past, even something as simple and reasonable as reprogramming the mmsi is impossible, let alone tuning out the noise of alerts.