Replace flares or buy a PLB

[Mark-1]

The EPIRB/PLB system is very good, but it was designed in about 1960 to work for ships out in the ocean. It's not envisaged as a fast response system.

Worst of all you don't get two way comms so you can't tell them it's not a false alarm.

I wonder if other outdoor solutions are already better, although you might need to fork out for a subscription:
The 5 Best Satellite Messengers of 2024

(I don't know the answer to that, I haven't investigated.)

 

[rotrax]

I bought an LED SOS flare. It floats or can be hoisted up the mast and flashes SOS.

It takes easily replaced cells, Will flash for 10 hours when in use, can be seen at 10 miles in the dark, 1.5 miles in daylight and will last a very long time with no expiry date.

US Coastguard approved, which is not an easy approval to get.

No more fireworks on my boat. We have a good EPIRB, handheld and fixed VHF and a mobile phone.

The LED flare compliments the above.

 

[Tranona]

Oh, several cases; there have happened even worse situations: stormy night, a boat was approaching the French Atlantic coast, they issued a mayday by cell phone to the MRCC but got their position wrong, one of the supposedly better ways of describing a position by relating it to a physical feature: "boat dismasted, we are nearing rocks in front of lighthouse X". Except, they got the lighthouse wrong, the SAR boat went out and obviously could not find them, until they shot a couple of flares and could be located in the correct position. Disaster, one dead person, boat almost destroyed (google "naufrage Reder mor" First 51)
Also, I personnally heard on the VHF at least three SAR operations initiated by a call "MRCC here XYZ, I have seen a red flare at some distance". The French CROSS operation reports have numerous other examples of course.
There are always different ways of doing things, in particular raising an alert, I would not dismiss beforehand any of the technical possibilities.

Having real examples with the context is useful as one can then compare the incident with the original question. Given what the OP says he will never ever be in a situation of a stormy night off the Atlantic cost of France. Another example recently was an inshore fisherman whose boat capsized in a bay in the SW of UK. Radio did not work and his flare was spotted by the large number of people on the beach. once again totally unrelated to the OPs situation.

You can find many examples of flares being used, some with effect but more often not. This does not mean they are an appropriate means of attracting attention when cruising in a small yacht in N European waters where there is almost universal coverage of radio and electronic communications plus probably the best rescue services on the planet. As you may know in the UK there are no rules for small boats, but even for 23m+ boats which do require flares the RYA has been pressing for yrats to rmove the requirement for flares because there is no evidence they add to safety. Equally they never appear on the list of of means of notification from the Coastguard or RNLI.

Flares had their value in the past when there was no alternative and still have value as a last resort when out of range of better methods of communication but now there reliable and effective alternatives it is difficult to justify carrying them as a matter of course for siling in our coastal and cotinental margin waters.

 

[Roberto]

Having real examples with the context is useful as one can then compare the incident with the original question. Given what the OP says he will never ever be in a situation of a stormy night off the Atlantic cost of France. Another example recently was an inshore fisherman whose boat capsized in a bay in the SW of UK. Radio did not work and his flare was spotted by the large number of people on the beach. once again totally unrelated to the OPs situation.

You can find many examples of flares being used, some with effect but more often not. This does not mean they are an appropriate means of attracting attention when cruising in a small yacht in N European waters where there is almost universal coverage of radio and electronic communications plus probably the best rescue services on the planet. As you may know in the UK there are no rules for small boats, but even for 23m+ boats which do require flares the RYA has been pressing for yrats to rmove the requirement for flares because there is no evidence they add to safety. Equally they never appear on the list of of means of notification from the Coastguard or RNLI.

Flares had their value in the past when there was no alternative and still have value as a last resort when out of range of better methods of communication but now there reliable and effective alternatives it is difficult to justify carrying them as a matter of course for siling in our coastal and cotinental margin waters.

I just mentioned facts. Have flares been useful in coastal waters (as you asked)? Yes, fact.
Are they necessary? probably not
Are they useless? probably not
I do not want to convince anyone but won't be convinced by anything but facts, be it the RYA "evidence they do not add to safety" when there are several cases demonstrating the opposite.
Facts to help anyone make his/her own mind

 

[thinwater]

I know of a number of cases along south coast of UK that rescues happened because of flares sigted by shore. I agree such cases are rare ... BUT

Try this simple test ... ask land person what they would do if they saw a red flare out on the water ... most will answer - Call Coastguard / 999. But an LED Flare ???

Even people in the street know about pyro flares .... so I am one who still believes in those antique style pyro flares.

To say just have them if you go offshore is daft ... sorry - but flares are a VISUAL item ... whether you are 1nm or 1000nm offshore.

I did this test with a group.

Flare. Lasted a minute. Everyone thought it was a running light or shore light. Wouldn't report it because they were not sure what they saw. At a distance you can't even tell it's red. An aerial flare would be more recognizable. But even so, they have to be looking the right direction at the right moment.

LED. The ...---... pattern was a dead giveaway. No question that is was distress. Call 911 right now (US emergency number). Also, they last 6 hours. That's 360 times longer. Long enough to think about it and decide that yes, it is distress that needs reported, and not just your eyes playing tricks on you.

---

I switched to e-flares when I went to the chandlery and the flares were 50% through their date. I asked for a 50% discount and they said no discount. I said keep them.

My current sailing never takes me out of cell or VHF range (used to but not any more). Very unlikely I would use any signalling device to attract attention. Since GPS and cell phone give lat/lon, rescue assets should have no trouble pinpointing me. A flashlight/torch should be enough to home in on. If I sailed farther I would have a sat phone. Far more likely to work than a flare.

But no reason not to carry flares too, if you think they fit your situation. Another way to look at it is to consider the e-flare to be an inexpensive addition to your kit that has a very long life, and that serves a different purpose from flares.

---

BTW, part of the reason the USCG sponsored development of e-flares (there is a specific US standard for e-flares that give an ...---... pattern with 6 mile range) was fire. What could possibly go wrong with a group of drunks and fireworks in a fishing boat ... ? Let's play with the flare gun ... inside the cabin!

More seriously, it's good to have people practice with old pyrotechnics, so that they don't sink a raft, hurt someone, or light the boat on fire. And fun.

 

[William_H]

Much depends on the location of sailing. Around here safety equipment is closely regulated and policed. For more than 3nm from shore EPIRB VHF radio and flares are mandatory. However electronic flares are now acceptable in lieu of smoke and rocket flares. (a great step forward). PLB is not accepted as EPIRB due I think to shorter operating life. Many rescues now from EPIRB operation. (GPS EPIRB is to become mandatory soon) However peculiar to our location (West Oz) DSC is not popular in small boats. So use for emergency calling is not common.
OP of course needs to check with requirements re flares for other jurisdictions like France and Spain or even further. But to my opinion flares should only be carried when demanded by authorities. EPIRB is primary call for help. Electronic flare for final location. PLB for MOB situation. (may well be a good idea if carried on person). There have been several cases of small MOBO capsizing with crew thrown in water. Where access to EPIRB was not easy. PLB woukld be great if carried in LJ. ol'will

 

[noelex]

I would suggest a PLB as the better alternative if this meets the legal requirements for your registration.

Flares have a very short duration and a limited arc of visibility.

 

[Neeves]

Our flares have just gone out of date , just started to consider the following , due to there relative short shelf life and difficulties of disposing , should I replace these or not , purchase a PLB together with an electronic flare. We have an EPIRB and DSC on our 12m yacht sailed normally by wife and myself , south coast , Channel Islands and Brittany cruising area.
I would pleased to receive thoughts and comments

I'd have both.

If there is any traffic it is very difficult to ignore a flare or smoke. If a cargo ship is looking to be a threat they similarly cannot ignore a parachute flare launched in front of them. Flares draw immediate attention.

Flares seem expensive and a nuisance, because of disposal, - until you need them. In white water conditions a flare, or smoke stands out, unlike a white yacht with blue AF. Similarly the helicopter pilots knows exactly where you are - flares are difficult to miss.

I have never seen an electronic flare used - I cannot comment. I have seen and used (not in anger) pyrotechnic flares, smoke, flares and parachute flares.


In HK we overcame the problem of disposal and the absence of practice - as though they were banned in HK (when used as fireworks) Macau had no such inhibitions and out of date flares were stored and set off at Chinese New Year, before the start of a race from Macau to HK.

Jonathan

 

[Mark-1]

In HK we overcame the problem of disposal and the absence of practice - as though they were banned in HK (when used as fireworks) Macau had no such inhibitions and out of date flares were stored and set off at Chinese New Year, before the start of a race from Macau to HK.

So a flare unlikely to generate a search around that time, just as I've seen red parachute flares in the Solent area close to November the 5th which I didn't hear reported on Ch16.

 

[38mess]

So a flare unlikely to generate a search around that time, just as I've seen red parachute flares in the Solent area close to November the 5th which I didn't hear reported on Ch16.

People tend to let their expired flares off around 5 November around this neck of the woods.

 

[Refueler]

I would suggest a PLB as the better alternative if this meets the legal requirements for your registration.

Flares have a very short duration and a limited arc of visibility.

Arc of vis ???? Its 360 - can't get more than that. Its RANGE and TIME of burn that is limited.

As 'thinwaters' post debunking mine ... sorry - I don't accept as USA having accredited LED Flares would not be unbiased ... In USA they are now an accepted item. Rest of World - they are a debated item.

The only reference to fire or injury I can find regarding traditional flares - is the article in YBW some years ago - where it was reported a guy received burns to hand / arm etc. when firing off ...
Given the sheer number of years such Pyros have been around and carried - that speaks for itself I think in terms of accident stats ... You'll likely find more incidents of Lightning strike to person that injury from a flare !

 

[Tranona]

I just mentioned facts. Have flares been useful in coastal waters (as you asked)? Yes, fact.
Are they necessary? probably not
Are they useless? probably not
I do not want to convince anyone but won't be convinced by anything but facts, be it the RYA "evidence they do not add to safety" when there are several cases demonstrating the opposite.
Facts to help anyone make his/her own mind

Just what I was saying, using your example as an illustration. I asked the question because people tend to making sweeping statements without giving enough detail to determine whether it is useful in helping to answer the OPs question.

 

[Refueler]

Maybe some people need to consider when or what scenario - the emergency is that requires use of such items.

Many of which would seriously reduce the use of mobile phone as one example.... and I am not talking about distance offshore ... think about your boat is waterlogged - you are wet ..

I look upon the scenario as each item can fit into an overall setup to cover as many variables as possible.

Comments about shore only seeing when looking in that direction ... OK - accepted. But I don't read anywhere here about the homing in aspect of rescue services ...
Parachute flares are designed to increase the range at which seen ... this is significant increase !! AND the flare usually burns longer than a hand held. Hand held flares are designed for short range - I'm over here ...

Take the Lifeboat or Heli gone out to find you ... your VHF Red Button has done its job ... and they have the point at which you pressed that button .. but by time they get there - you have moved especially in foul weather ... NOW those flares come in handy .. Parachute to let them see which direction ... hand held as they get closer ..

Yes you could use an LED ... but what about that Parachute flare ?

Seriously peeps ... have a think about the wider issue of circumstances when you would be using such items ... isn't it better to cover all bases ?

 

[SimonD]

The only reference to fire or injury I can find regarding traditional flares - is the article in YBW some years ago - where it was reported a guy received burns to hand / arm etc. when firing off ...

A few examples here: Flare death in Pacific reignites pyrotechnic debate - Yachting Monthly
Maybe accidents are not common, but the consequences can be tragic.

 

[Refueler]

A few examples here: Flare death in Pacific reignites pyrotechnic debate - Yachting Monthly
Maybe accidents are not common, but the consequences can be tragic.

No-one denies the tragic aspect.

But I will still say - the number of incidents vs the sheer long time they have been used is tiny ....

 

[Mark-1]

Maybe some people need to consider when or what scenario - the emergency is that requires use of such items.

Many of which would seriously reduce the use of mobile phone as one example.... and I am not talking about distance offshore ... think about your boat is waterlogged - you are wet ..

I look upon the scenario as each item can fit into an overall setup to cover as many variables as possible.

Comments about shore only seeing when looking in that direction ... OK - accepted. But I don't read anywhere here about the homing in aspect of rescue services ...
Parachute flares are designed to increase the range at which seen ... this is significant increase !! AND the flare usually burns longer than a hand held. Hand held flares are designed for short range - I'm over here ...

Take the Lifeboat or Heli gone out to find you ... your VHF Red Button has done its job ... and they have the point at which you pressed that button .. but by time they get there - you have moved especially in foul weather ... NOW those flares come in handy .. Parachute to let them see which direction ... hand held as they get closer ..

Yes you could use an LED ... but what about that Parachute flare ?

Seriously peeps ... have a think about the wider issue of circumstances when you would be using such items ... isn't it better to cover all bases ?

I think (minor) burns from flares are so common they aren't even considered worthy of mention. Racers celebrating wins with hand helds seem to always get a mark or two and David Lewis (or was it the other one) certainly got burned. The fact people feel the need to wear gloves and glasses says it all. I wonder how well a Handheld VHF/Mobile phone that needed gloves and glasses in use would sell?

I suspect the boat might get a bit of a scorching too, based on tbe handheld I let off in my garden chucking debris all over the lawn. Do people typically do flare displays on an immaculate GRP boat or a floor surface they care about? Do people let their 6yo kids practice with flares in case they need to use them the way you'd get them familiar with a VHF? Probably not - because it's unsafe.

People wear goggles and gloves and disposal is a nightmare. That's not saying safe to me. My VHF can go straight in the bin amd the battery goes in the recycle bin at the corner shop. Can I put a flare in the bin at the supermarket? Maybe the reason it can't is because it's not safe.

if you want to cover all bases you need a burning tar barrel.

 

[Halo]

I used my 30 year old pyro flares on November 5 at a location 60 miles from the sea. Every one went off fine.
I will never replace my slightly out of date pyros , will keep them aboard and never let them off other than in an emergency
I have a plb and am thinking of getting an ais one

 

[Bobc]

Flares are bloody dangerous things and are really old tech.

 

[Sandy]

Flares are bloody dangerous things and are really old tech.

Any evidence to support that statement?

Apart from Duncan Well's accident and the chap who posted on the forum years ago about leaving his pyrotechnics on top of the dinghy in his boat's cockpit locker on a hot day in the Mediterranean, clearly ignoring the instructions to store in a cool dry place and then self ignited, plus the one New Year’s Day incident above, given the date I wonder if any intoxicating liqueur was involved, thousands of football fans are able to use them without any reported incidents.

 

[geem]

........

Any evidence to support that statement?

Apart from Duncan Well's accident and the chap who posted on the forum years ago about leaving his pyrotechnics on top of the dinghy in his boat's cockpit locker on a hot day in the Mediterranean, clearly ignoring the instructions to store in a cool dry place and then self ignited, plus the one New Year’s Day incident above, given the date I wonder if any intoxicating liqueur was involved, thousands of football fans are able to use them without any reported incidents.

We watched the arrival of the transatlantic rowers in Antigua for the last couple of years. The safety officer for the event lets off two red hand held flares as each boat cross the line. Normally about 35 boats in the event each year. Each person on the finishing boat tends to let off a red handheld flare as well. Not seen as single incident. That's probably inexcess of 100 red flares going off. Looks pretty safe to me having stood next to the guy setting them off several times