Replace flares or buy a PLB

[Tranona]

Channel islands and Brittany would very much fall within the expectation that you are likely to be sailing at night out of immediate reach of shelter. Which would make you Cat 3 with Liferaft if the crossing was a race. And seems a perfectly reasonable assumption.

I disagree that the need has changed much. I don't think that the job of Flares has yet been proven to have been taken over by other tech, yet. I do agree that it will eventually happen, but I don't think that we are there yet.
For my money, if was equipping a cruising boat for that area, they would be on my boat.

Really? Don't think there has been any unusual high level of incidents in those well travelled waters. OK bit more demanding than pootling along the S Coast, but no need to night sail in poor conditions (except for passages from West Country) and all within VHF range of the best rescue services in the world. Who is there to see a flare unless you are in the shipping lanes or in a fleet of racers?

It is instructive to go back more than 10 years to the MAIB reports from the mid 90s and note the number of yachts lost and fatalities compared with the last 10 years. All the technical developments have really made a difference whether it be fewer keels falling off, better built and prepared boats, better forecasting and particularly better communications.

Flares do have a potential role in parts of the world that don't have the sort of infrastructure we have (see the comments from down under). What seems unclear so far is whether the LEDs can be equally effective in those rare cases where a visual signal might do the trick.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I remember Hooligan. I'm pretty sure flares only saved the day because they didn't have a EPIRB, or a HH VHF to hand. Not sure PLBs were in common use at the time. …

That is the whole point of pyros, for whatever reason if other methods of communicating distress are unavailable.

The argument that flares should not be carried because they are unsafe is a red herring, a risked based argument that better and more efficient methods are available for attracting attention, can be made. The need for pyros requires a number of reliable other methods to fail, and that probability being a product of the other failure modes gets quite small.

Where I sail, VHF and Mobile, have some dark corners, and EPIRB response times can be slower due to lifeboat locations and wide area. So for me, I have made that risk assessment and flares make the grade.

 

[Refueler]

A searchlight or powerful torch would do that job.

Fine .... never said it wouldn't ... but consider :

1. Flares work wet - under water etc. (Under water I agree is not needed - but it shows the characteristic)
2. Its 360 deg without having to figure out where to aim the light ..

I'm not against other ways ... just trying to get through that flares although old-hat - still have a place ..

 

[rotrax]

Any evidence to support that statement?

Apart from Duncan Well's accident and the chap who posted on the forum years ago about leaving his pyrotechnics on top of the dinghy in his boat's cockpit locker on a hot day in the Mediterranean, clearly ignoring the instructions to store in a cool dry place and then self ignited, plus the one New Year’s Day incident above, given the date I wonder if any intoxicating liqueur was involved, thousands of football fans are able to use them without any reported incidents.

Football fans - plus F1 and MotoGP fans - normally use Smoke Marker Flares, not Parachute Rocket Flares. The latter are the questionable ones.

Smoke Marker Flares are just a large handheld firework.

Some dodgy football fans used rocket flares at a match in Europe and severely injured another spectator across the pitch.

 

[Refueler]

I really could not believe the post talking about marking decks ... small burns to hands needing gloves etc. as reason to NOT carry flares ....

We are talking a LIFE SAVING item ... I would be happy to be alive, and if that means a few burns or marked decks ... so be it ...

I have a pair of gloves in my Flare container .......

If you really want to fire off old ones to 'practice' - then why are you doing on the boat ? Do it well away from everything - especially so its not misinterpreted by anyone who may see it ...

When we test fire old on ship for Drills etc. - first thing is a good scan of the area to make sure no other vessels around ..... then its done on the poop deck on lee side over the water.

 

[Mark-1]

I really could not believe the post talking about marking decks ... small burns to hands needing gloves etc. as reason to NOT carry flares ....

No, I was answering the claim that flares are safe. Something you fear may wreck your gel coat with fire doesn't seem desirable in a crisis relative to the alternatives.

I have made no mention of "carrying" flares at all. That's a completely different issue to their relative usefulness. People often carry relatively useless stuff and often fail to carry relatively useful stuff. Carring them also doesn't mean you're going to use them above the alternatives, as we saw in the recent RTIR.

 

[flaming]

Really? Don't think there has been any unusual high level of incidents in those well travelled waters. OK bit more demanding than pootling along the S Coast, but no need to night sail in poor conditions (except for passages from West Country) and all within VHF range of the best rescue services in the world. Who is there to see a flare unless you are in the shipping lanes or in a fleet of racers?

It is instructive to go back more than 10 years to the MAIB reports from the mid 90s and note the number of yachts lost and fatalities compared with the last 10 years. All the technical developments have really made a difference whether it be fewer keels falling off, better built and prepared boats, better forecasting and particularly better communications.

Flares do have a potential role in parts of the world that don't have the sort of infrastructure we have (see the comments from down under). What seems unclear so far is whether the LEDs can be equally effective in those rare cases where a visual signal might do the trick.

I think you've missed my point. Which was that if you were a race organiser like, oh I dunno, JOG, who run multiple races to the channel islands and French ports per season, then you look at the course etc and select the appropriate OSR category to require your entrants to meet, then the answer is Cat 3, with liferaft. Which is what they require. And RORC cross channel races. And the great escape race. And.....

If therefore anyone is unsure as to what safety gear they want to carry for that sort of crossing when cruising, I would suggest that those regs make a really good starting point. Right now they do include flares.

And to clarify, as you appear to have once again created a straw man argument, for the avoidance of all doubt I am NOT saying that were I in the middle of the channel and had an emergency of some kind, that the first thing I would do would be to pop off a Flare. No, my first port of call would be the VHF.

However, if I was dismasted, and somehow didn't have any battery in my handheld, or dropped it over the side, and was out of mobile phone range, and had a hole in the boat from the mast, or someone in the water, or.... Then having a flare or 2 around suddenly looks like a good plan.

Is that likely? No.
Is it possible, yes.
Is the mitigation expensive, or awkward to carry, or requires regular checking and maintenance? No,

As for "who's there to see a flare?". That really is the thing you can take from Hooligan. That was a February night well away from the shipping lanes and they were seen and plucked out of the water minutes later. In summer... I mean just look at the AIS plot of the channel now... It's not exactly empty....

 

[B27]

I think there are plenty of places where VHF and mobile can be iffy, including many where you're not unlikely to be in sight of other people.
Even on the South Coast.
Flares are about £30 a year?

One of the good things about racing and coding is that you don't have to agonise over this kind of issue, you just follow the rules and know you're not wildly wrong.

 

[Chris CJ]

Thank you for all your comments and experiences, it’s certainly generated a great deal of debate , with strong views for and against flares and LED flares and some in between , all very healthy stuff.

I’m coming to the conclusion , having two hand held VHF’s on board as well as the ships VHF with DSC function and an EPIRB, we will purchase 2 PLBs and an inshore flare pack. The LED flare , I believe still has some way to go yet to prove a reliable replacement for traditional flares , although it still sits as a useful tool in the compendium of safety equipment to have on board. In 3 years time there may be a clearer picture of where technology will lead this debate.

Hopefully this proves to be a reasonable assessment and a way forward to my conundrum.

 

[Tranona]

I think you've missed my point. Which was that if you were a race organiser like, oh I dunno, JOG, who run multiple races to the channel islands and French ports per season, then you look at the course etc and select the appropriate OSR category to require your entrants to meet, then the answer is Cat 3, with liferaft. Which is what they require. And RORC cross channel races. And the great escape race. And.....

If therefore anyone is unsure as to what safety gear they want to carry for that sort of crossing when cruising, I would suggest that those regs make a really good starting point. Right now they do include flares.

And to clarify, as you appear to have once again created a straw man argument, for the avoidance of all doubt I am NOT saying that were I in the middle of the channel and had an emergency of some kind, that the first thing I would do would be to pop off a Flare. No, my first port of call would be the VHF.

However, if I was dismasted, and somehow didn't have any battery in my handheld, or dropped it over the side, and was out of mobile phone range, and had a hole in the boat from the mast, or someone in the water, or.... Then having a flare or 2 around suddenly looks like a good plan.

Is that likely? No.
Is it possible, yes.
Is the mitigation expensive, or awkward to carry, or requires regular checking and maintenance? No,

As for "who's there to see a flare?". That really is the thing you can take from Hooligan. That was a February night well away from the shipping lanes and they were seen and plucked out of the water minutes later. In summer... I mean just look at the AIS plot of the channel now... It's not exactly empty....

No straw man. Never suggested flares were a method of choice when other more reliable methods are available. Nor am I saying that there have not been cases of incidents (like Hooligan, the one Roberto mentioned and the inshore fisherman I quoted) where flares have played a critical role.

What I am saying is that when you look closely at those incidents they are not the sort of situations that the OP is ever likely to find himself in - nor the vast majority of leisure sailors. This subject comes up regularly and it is rare to find any real world cases where lives were lost because of lack of flares (difficult to determine of course), lives were saved solely or partly because of the flare. Not only is the number of incidents small, but less and less common for all the reasons I suggested.

You say "we are not there yet" whereas I am suggesting for coastal sailors in our waters we are. This does not mean that once you move out of the area or engage in a different type of sea based activity flares start to get on the required list, just a number of others have said. Racing is different because of both the different risks but also the need for organisers to show a duty of care. It is instructive that the RYA are only calling for flares to optional on purely private vessels above13m, partly because it supports owners being capable of making their own decisions on which gear to carry. The steady decline in the sale of flares suggests owners are making that decision voluntarily.

 

[flaming]

What I am saying is that when you look closely at those incidents they are not the sort of situations that the OP is ever likely to find himself in - nor the vast majority of leisure sailors.

The vast majority of leisure sailors never use any of their safety gear in anger.

The vast majority of car drivers never use their airbags, crumple zones etc.

Some do though.

I would find your position easier to understand if Flares were expensive. At £100 for a coastal set that lasts 4 years that's £25 a year. I can't think of anything boat related I spend less on....

 

[Refueler]

I think there are plenty of places where VHF and mobile can be iffy, including many where you're not unlikely to be in sight of other people.
Even on the South Coast.
Flares are about £30 a year?

One of the good things about racing and coding is that you don't have to agonise over this kind of issue, you just follow the rules and know you're not wildly wrong.

People make issue about costs and short life. There is a simple solution :

Spread cost ... simply replace part one month .... few months later replace more .. instead of in one go. Doing it that way as well - means its not such a hit to build up the better offshore pack ... the Inshore is a bit iffy !!

 

[noelex]

we will purchase 2 PLBs and an inshore flare pack.

.
Give some thought as to whether a PLB, AIS MOB device, or both is best for your needs. These two means of sending out a distress signal have quite different advantages and drawbacks. If you can afford both, the two systems are complimentary, each covering the shortcomings of the other.

There are also models that combine these two functions in the one unit, but last I looked they were a similar price to purchasing the units separately.

 

[Tranona]

The vast majority of leisure sailors never use any of their safety gear in anger.

The vast majority of car drivers never use their airbags, crumple zones etc.

Some do though.

I would find your position easier to understand if Flares were expensive. At £100 for a coastal set that lasts 4 years that's £25 a year. I can't think of anything boat related I spend less on....

Nothing to do with money. Just prefer to look at the available evidence and making an informed decision in the circumstances. I thought I made it clear I was not anti flare, just not convinced they have any value in the OPs situation which is similar to mine. It is a personal decision rather than one made by a third party.

The comparators you use are poor. Passive safety devices in cars have a proven record of working and the chances of you needing them are massively greater than ever being in a position to need a flare. I was one of the early adopters of seat belts having been saved serious injury both to myself wife and unborn daughter because they were fitted to my Anglia that I used for a bit of racing - 1968. Austin A60s are very solid when they pull straight across the A40 in front of you.

I really am not sure why you find my position so difficult. Just exercising personal choice based on what I think I know.

OP has done the same and come to a slightly different decision from both yours and mine

 

[Neeves]

Thank you for all your comments and experiences, it’s certainly generated a great deal of debate , with strong views for and against flares and LED flares and some in between , all very healthy stuff.

I’m coming to the conclusion , having two hand held VHF’s on board as well as the ships VHF with DSC function and an EPIRB, we will purchase 2 PLBs and an inshore flare pack. The LED flare , I believe still has some way to go yet to prove a reliable replacement for traditional flares , although it still sits as a useful tool in the compendium of safety equipment to have on board. In 3 years time there may be a clearer picture of where technology will lead this debate.

Hopefully this proves to be a reasonable assessment and a way forward to my conundrum.

I cannot recall but parachute flares, I think, are an option. If you think you need 'location devices' then parachute flares come into the equation as on a dark rough night they will illuminate the scene for the rescue helicopter. If, as I think, they are outside requirements then you don't need to replace them with quite the regularity of the rest of the flares.

If you are carrying a certificated life raft it will have flares as part of the equipment.

As mentioned - you are unlikely to use in anger any of the safety equipment you carry, EPIRB, the DSC function, LJs or flares - but when you need them - you need them. A bit like insurance. Part of the decision depends on where and how you use your yacht - there is no one size fits all.

Arguably the equipment demanded for racing is a bit OTT. You will be part of a fleet and there will be other competitors around you (depends on the race). As part of Duty of Care - organisers continue to demand specific safety equipment.

We carried a life raft - as my father had been picked up from a life raft. In the absence or failure of same - I and my 4 sisters would not be here. In approx 40 years of sailing - we have never used in anger the life rafts, nor LJs, flares, etc. It has never occurred to me to regret the costs, nor try to save the insignificant amounts on money.

The question does not arise but I might, in the interim, carry both a pyrotechnic set of flares and an LED flare - again I don't think its either or.

Jonathan

 

[penberth3]

Fine .... never said it wouldn't ... but consider :

1. Flares work wet - under water etc. (Under water I agree is not needed - but it shows the characteristic)
2. Its 360 deg without having to figure out where to aim the light ..

I'm not against other ways ... just trying to get through that flares although old-hat - still have a place ..

I'm not disagreeing with you, the more options the better.

 

[Mark-1]

- you are unlikely to use in anger any of the safety equipment you carry,

FWIW I use my HH VHF and Mobile phone in day to day use enough that using them is second nature, they come straight to hand and I know they're working. Useful features of safety kit IMHO.


EDIT: carriage-of-pyrotechnic-flares

"In the RYA’s view, the practical drawbacks of pyrotechnic flares and their limited effectiveness in distress alerting, combined with the availability of alternative electronic distress alerting and location indicating technology, mean that pyrotechnic flares are now obsolescent."

TBH, obsolete is a bit of a strong word. If nothing else flares must show up pretty clearly on an IR camera. So if you considered them "IR beacons" that's still something.


The RYA publish a suggested list of kit:
Equipment | safety | RYA

I suspect many of us don't follow it that closely and we could pick holes in it all day, but it's interesting.

 

[Neeves]

FWIW I use my HH VHF and Mobile phone in day to day use enough that using them is second nature, they come straight to hand and I know they're working. Useful features of safety kit IMHO.

That makes a refreshing change - most people carry a mobile phone every day - but when they come to post a thread - they completely forget they are carrying a camera. You are very unusual, and lucky, for a second reason - few of us use a VHF everyday.

Jonathan

 

[Roberto]

FWIW, the individual equipment advised by the French air SAR patrol for offshore sailing is : plb (+ais if possible), fluorescein/dyemarker, flashlight, day/night signal (smallish tube with smoke signal on one side, flare on the other). I keep this pouch on myself, can sleep eat maneuver etc with it. The MK2 version has an external pocket for the kitchen timer :d It makes one look as a St Bernard dog, but hey ho.
While very coastal (and usually with a lot of boats all around) I just keep a portable dsc vhf hooked on the lifejacket.