Replace flares or buy a PLB

[Mark-1]

Any evidence to support that statement?

Apart from Duncan Well's accident and the chap who posted on the forum years ago about leaving his pyrotechnics on top of the dinghy in his boat's cockpit locker on a hot day in the Mediterranean, clearly ignoring the instructions to store in a cool dry place and then self ignited, plus the one New Year’s Day incident above, given the date I wonder if any intoxicating liqueur was involved, thousands of football fans are able to use them without any reported incidents.

Nothing in your post is saying "safe" to me. So dangerous you can't use them drunk and have store them in the right environment. If you need to add a load of caveats to "safe" they thing isn't safe!

Aren't flares banned from football events *because* they're dangerous? I can't imagine any other reason.

 

[Tranona]

No-one denies the tragic aspect.

But I will still say - the number of incidents vs the sheer long time they have been used is tiny ....

So much the same as the number of incidents in recent years involving sailing yachts in our coastal waters where flares have been critical or even made a contribution to the rescue.

The nub of the question is whether visual means of attracting attention for yachts in distress is useful, and if so are flares or electronic beams equally effective.?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Flares are bloody dangerous things and are really old tech.

Any evidence to support that statement? ...

It doesn't need evidence, they are old tech and dangerous. Sailing is old tech and dangerous, but the majority learn to sail without smashing heads and limbs, garrotting oneself and falling overboard and drowning.

For me at least, the question on carrying flares is not about danger and age of the tech (after all VHF is also old tech), it is about having a means of attempting to alert distress that is independent of anything else. Like my liferaft, which I am likely to never use, and will cost me a lot of money to maintain, the probability is never 0, hence one day, I could be grateful that I had flares. I plan never to be in that position, but again, the probability of a perfect plan being executed such that I am never in danger, is not 0. However, I don't have a meteor impact cage over my boat either, the probability of being struck is not 0.

Maybe some cold logic and probability is required in decision making.

 

[Mark-1]

........
We watched the arrival of the transatlantic rowers in Antigua for the last couple of years. The safety officer for the event lets off two red hand held flares as each boat cross the line. Normally about 35 boats in the event each year. Each person on the finishing boat tends to let off a red handheld flare as well. Not seen as single incident. That's probably inexcess of 100 red flares going off. Looks pretty safe to me having stood next to the guy setting them off several times

Googling the photos they are holding them at arms length and by the very tip. Seem to often be holding them outboard as well. I suspect the act of lighting a flare is a good way to celebrate *because* it feels a bit risky and dramatic.

In contrast an LED torch or VHF would have zero excitement value because they're so safe they're mundane.

"Exciting to use" isn't a desirable feature of a communications device.

(Also they know what they're doing, they probably have practiced with flares and they're in a calm safe situation. The guy in charge of the comms in a real emergency is, by definition, going to be the least useful person - the one who isn't needed to deal with the emergency. Unlikely to be the one who regularly lets of flares to keep his hand in. And there will be nothing calm about the situation.)

 

[Mark-1]

It doesn't need evidence, they are old tech and dangerous. Sailing is old tech and dangerous, but the majority learn to sail without smashing heads and limbs, garrotting oneself and falling overboard and drowning.

For me at least, the question on carrying flares is not about danger and age of the tech (after all VHF is also old tech), it is about having a means of attempting to alert distress that is independent of anything else. Like my liferaft, which I am likely to never use, and will cost me a lot of money to maintain, the probability is never 0, hence one day, I could be grateful that I had flares. I plan never to be in that position, but again, the probability of a perfect plan being executed such that I am never in danger, is not 0. However, I don't have a meteor impact cage over my boat either, the probability of being struck is not 0.

Maybe some cold logic and probability is required in decision making.

FWIW, I don't think sailing is dangerous. I reckon Sailing is one of the safest sports there is and way safer than using roads.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

FWIW, I don't think sailing is dangerous. I reckon Sailing is one of the safest sports there is and way safer than using roads.

It is dangerous, whether you think it is or not. The list of hazards associated with sailing demonstrates that. Of course, the reality is that there are controls in place to mitigate the risk of these hazards. Driving on roads is a highly controlled activity with very few hazards and is safer than sailing by a country mile.

 

[Mark-1]

It is dangerous, whether you think it is or not. The list of hazards associated with sailing demonstrates that. Of course, the reality is that there are controls in place to mitigate the risk of these hazards. Driving on roads is a highly controlled activity with very few hazards and is safer than sailing by a country mile.

Scroll to the table:
Is Fencing A Safe Sport? - PDX Fencing


(If you want to, obvs, I'm not insisting!)

 

[Tranona]

Scroll to the table:
Is Fencing A Safe Sport? - PDX Fencing


(If you want to, obvs, I'm not insisting!)

Although I agree with you about safety in general, that table does not help as it refers to Olympic athletes

While the potential hazards in sailing yachts in the sea are numerous they are largely easily avoided and it terms of danger to life not really a threat. However comparisons with driving are not helpful because of the completely different scale of participation.. I have been sailing pretty much continuously for over 50 years and have only called for assistance twice - both relatively minor and inconvenient but not life threatening. Driving for longer all over the world and only 2 minor accidents. The big danger in driving is the actions of others in close proximity to you, not the environmental hazards.

 

[flaming]

I do think that the OSR, the offshore safety regs, generally form a really good basis for deciding what equipment a cruising boat should consider from a safety point of view. Everything in the regs is well tested and proven.
They still mandate pyrotechnics.

This debate comes up from time to time, and currently I still come down on the side of agreeing with the OSR that Flares still do a job that nothing else does, and therefore they earn a place on board. There are a number of high profile incidents in the relatively recent past where Flares enabled a rescue, or the lack of them delayed a rescue.
Hooligan goes into the former category.

The job that Flares do that nothing else does in quite the same way is the "HEY LOOK AT ME" job to people close to you.

Seago Flare Packs
At £100 for a coastal flare pack, that doesn't feel like a great expense to have that other tool in your inventory. And of course most Chandlers will accept your old ones for disposal when you buy new ones.

 

[Tranona]

"Relatively recent past" is a kind of giveaway. The need is I suggest diminishing quickly. I agree the racing requirements are a good base for what equipment to carry IF you are sailing in the kinds of conditions and locations expected of offshore and passage racing, or by extension ocean sailing.

The OP is not - he is sailing in a relatively benign area for pleasure and presumably making full use of all the resources available to plan a safe passage in a well found boat. So I guess sailing a racer with a dodgy keel in the winter is not something he is likely to do! (It was 17 years ago - how time flies.)

 

[Mark-1]

Although I agree with you about safety in general, that table does not help as it refers to Olympic athletes

While the potential hazards in sailing yachts in the sea are numerous they are largely easily avoided and it terms of danger to life not really a threat. However comparisons with driving are not helpful because of the completely different scale of participation.. I have been sailing pretty much continuously for over 50 years and have only called for assistance twice - both relatively minor and inconvenient but not life threatening. Driving for longer all over the world and only 2 minor accidents. The big danger in driving is the actions of others in close proximity to you, not the environmental hazards.

I just picked the first table I found. We've all seen similar tables that feature ocean racing which is probably more risk than most normal sailors take on and it's always well down the table.

Now boat maintainance. That *is* dangerous.

 

[geem]

Googling the photos they are holding them at arms length and by the very tip. Seem to often be holding them outboard as well. I suspect the act of lighting a flare is a good way to celebrate *because* it feels a bit risky and dramatic.

In contrast an LED torch or VHF would have zero excitement value because they're so safe they're mundane.

"Exciting to use" isn't a desirable feature of a communications device.

(Also they know what they're doing, they probably have practiced with flares and they're in a calm safe situation. The guy in charge of the comms in a real emergency is, by definition, going to be the least useful person - the one who isn't needed to deal with the emergency. Unlikely to be the one who regularly lets of flares to keep his hand in. And there will be nothing calm about the situation.)

Well I guess holding them up in celebration of having just rowed 3000 miles has something to do with it. But maybe people who are prepared to row that distance have a different view of risk than a sailor crossing the Channel. I doubt any of the rowers viewed letting the flares off at the end as their riskiest moment.
The instructions in my flares say to hold them at arms length. Sounds like good advice since the ends a bit hot!

 

[flaming]

"Relatively recent past" is a kind of giveaway. The need is I suggest diminishing quickly. I agree the racing requirements are a good base for what equipment to carry IF you are sailing in the kinds of conditions and locations expected of offshore and passage racing, or by extension ocean sailing.

The OP is not - he is sailing in a relatively benign area for pleasure and presumably making full use of all the resources available to plan a safe passage in a well found boat. So I guess sailing a racer with a dodgy keel in the winter is not something he is likely to do! (It was 17 years ago - how time flies.)

Channel islands and Brittany would very much fall within the expectation that you are likely to be sailing at night out of immediate reach of shelter. Which would make you Cat 3 with Liferaft if the crossing was a race. And seems a perfectly reasonable assumption.

I disagree that the need has changed much. I don't think that the job of Flares has yet been proven to have been taken over by other tech, yet. I do agree that it will eventually happen, but I don't think that we are there yet.
For my money, if was equipping a cruising boat for that area, they would be on my boat.

 

[penberth3]

......Take the Lifeboat or Heli gone out to find you ... your VHF Red Button has done its job ... and they have the point at which you pressed that button .. but by time they get there - you have moved especially in foul weather ... NOW those flares come in handy .. Parachute to let them see which direction ... hand held as they get closer ..

A searchlight or powerful torch would do that job.

 

[Mark-1]

I do think that the OSR, the offshore safety regs, generally form a really good basis for deciding what equipment a cruising boat should consider from a safety point of view. Everything in the regs is well tested and proven.
They still mandate pyrotechnics.

This debate comes up from time to time, and currently I still come down on the side of agreeing with the OSR that Flares still do a job that nothing else does, and therefore they earn a place on board. There are a number of high profile incidents in the relatively recent past where Flares enabled a rescue, or the lack of them delayed a rescue.
Hooligan goes into the former category.

The job that Flares do that nothing else does in quite the same way is the "HEY LOOK AT ME" job to people close to you.

Seago Flare Packs
At £100 for a coastal flare pack, that doesn't feel like a great expense to have that other tool in your inventory. And of course most Chandlers will accept your old ones for disposal when you buy new ones.

I remember Hooligan. I'm pretty sure flares only saved the day because they didn't have a EPIRB, or a HH VHF to hand. Not sure PLBs were in common use at the time. Can't remember if they had mobile phones with signal. (Was it south of the IOW or was that another one? If so these days they'd have signal.) Nobody's disputing Flares are your best method of communication if nothing else is available.

Of course, if instead of handheld flares they'd all had life jacket strobes the guy who died might well have been recovered alive.

Also Offshore racing strikes me an ideal environment for flares. You're in the middle of nowhere, but with plenty of switched on people with their eyes open in the locality.

I wouldn't be supprised to find (almost) all offshore racing crews carry PLBs these days which is far from a ringing endorsement for flares.

IIRC there were nine incidents in the RTIR this year. In a busy patch of water where help from other competitors was likely immediately available and even Rescue Boats in sight. Perfect environment for flares. How many of them chose flares over VHF? I have a feeling it was zero.

 

[Mark-1]

Well I guess holding them up in celebration of having just rowed 3000 miles has something to do with it. But maybe people who are prepared to row that distance have a different view of risk than a sailor crossing the Channel. I doubt any of the rowers viewed letting the flares off at the end as their riskiest moment.
The instructions in my flares say to hold them at arms length. Sounds like good advice since the ends a bit hot!

Hot, but safe.

 

[geem]

Hot, but safe.

So is the kettle

 

[Mark-1]

So is the kettle

If there were safer, more effective alternative to the kettle I wouldn't use a kettle either. (In fact I take a flask of hot water which is a safer and more effective alternative to the kettle for as long as it lasts.)

 

[flaming]

I remember Hooligan. I'm pretty sure flares only saved the day because they didn't have a EPIRB, or a HH VHF to hand. Not sure PLBs were in common use at the time. Can't remember if they had mobile phones with signal. (Was it south of the IOW or was that another one? If so these days they'd have signal.) Nobody's disputing Flares are your best method of communication if nothing else is available.

Also Offshore sailing strikes me an ideal environment for flares. You're in the middle of nowhere, but with plenty of switched on people with their eyes open in the locality.

I wouldn't be supprised to find (almost) all offshore racing crews carry PLBs these days which is far from a ringing endorsement for flares.

Hooligan only had flares to hand because they were in the grab bag that made it out of the boat. They were in the water for some time before getting in the liferaft so whatever electronics they had would have had their waterproofing tested quite thoroughly.
Rambler had a non AIS PLB, but it took several hours before that signal was received and then understood to be a genuine emergency, and only then because Leopard's navigator recognised the name. Meanwhile more than one boat, including Leopard, sailed right past them. Had any flares made it out of the boat you can bet that the Rambler crew would have set one off and got the attention of the crews sailing past.

When you get to Cat 2 (Fastnet etc) then an AIS PLB is mandated for every crew member, and yes you're right, most offshore crew on Cat 3 races are carrying them.

But that's nothing to do with flares. In my opinion it's an entirely false straw man to say that the emergence of one bit of kit changes the desirability of another. Remember that PLBs main purpose is finding a MOB. That's not generally something that we associate with a Flare.

I'll again state my opinion, which is that I would carry flares in the OP's situation. Why I would do that is because Flares do a job that nothing else can quite match. And at their relatively low cost and high reliability they are not something that I would consider dropping from my "it's all gone hideously wrong" inventory of equipment.
That is not saying that I would not also choose to carry PLBs for each crew, I almost certainly would.

 

[Sandy]

This is always an interesting topic, perhaps marmite would be a better word, and safe is a challenging word.

Many will know that I'm a retired Safety Engineer, no not Health and Safety, but the engineering discipline of making things that we need, but can and will kill you as safe as is reasonably practicable. It is understood that nothing will ever be 100% safe, think SS Richard Montgomery in the Thames Estuary. It sits there, but one day might just go bang.

Thus looking at how safe something is, was part of the day job hence asking for evidence.

From the following posts it does highlight how everybody's view of 'safe' differs.

Looks like @Mark-1 sails in the same way as Eric the Viking, cold beans straight out of the tin. Perhaps not a tin due to the risk of a laceration, perhaps a plastic box. I jest, but hope you can see my point.

Risk Management is something we, as sailors, should be good at, but sometimes things do go wrong. We choose to work or play in a very hostile environment and all make decisions. My favourite is; its blowing a hooly lets go to the pub.