dunedin
Well-known member
How many decades ago was that. If going across an ocean an EPIRB, a couple of PLBs and a sat phone would be (correction was) on my list, a mile ahead of any pyro flares
Replace flares or buy a PLB
- Thread starter Chris CJ
- Start date
38mess
Well-known member
Early 80s
Roberto
Well-known member
Oh, several cases; there have happened even worse situations: stormy night, a boat was approaching the French Atlantic coast, they issued a mayday by cell phone to the MRCC but got their position wrong, one of the supposedly better ways of describing a position by relating it to a physical feature: "boat dismasted, we are nearing rocks in front of lighthouse X". Except, they got the lighthouse wrong, the SAR boat went out and obviously could not find them, until they shot a couple of flares and could be located in the correct position. Disaster, one dead person, boat almost destroyed (google "naufrage Reder mor" First 51)
Also, I personnally heard on the VHF at least three SAR operations initiated by a call "MRCC here XYZ, I have seen a red flare at some distance". The French CROSS operation reports have numerous other examples of course.
There are always different ways of doing things, in particular raising an alert, I would not dismiss beforehand any of the technical possibilities.
Sandy
Well-known member
A great example of why VHF, especially with DSC calling these days, should be used as your primary comms tool near the coast. Saying that few people understand or use the full functionality of DSC. Who here calls another boat via a DSC call, is a member of a DCS group or can do a ‘position call’ on your pals boat to see who will be getting in the first round.
There is an old YouTube video on the Irish CG helicopters, I am sure it is a re-enactment for YT, where an ILB was capsized and they popped up a flare. I really must bookmark that.
dunedin
Well-known member
And hence entirely irrelevant in terms of best safety gear for getting rescue mid ocean
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
We all ram our boats with standalone gps devices (personal devices and plotters) despite the probability of never having a gps signal failure being very low. Some still carry charts! I think pyrotechnics fall into the same belts and braces category. Better to have on board, replace them every few years than wishing you had them because of a need, for whatever reason. Like liferafts, the probability that you will need them is diminishingly small in UK coastal sailing, but not improbable.
Pyrotechnics are safe if managed correctly. They are a reasonable, standalone, backup solution.
Here is Mr Well’s story so you don’t have to post trying to prove me wrong. Faulty flare victim thanks hospital
Pyrotechnics are safe if managed correctly. They are a reasonable, standalone, backup solution.
Here is Mr Well’s story so you don’t have to post trying to prove me wrong. Faulty flare victim thanks hospital
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
You don’t need a PLB if you have an EPIRB. Buy a hydrostatic release housing for the EPIRB if you decide not to have pyros.
PLBs have been shown to be a poor choice for transmitting emergency information as they require to be held very specifically for the data to be transmitted in full.
38mess
Well-known member
I thought we were discussing flares, so not irrelevant, they are totally useless. I have just had to purchase on offshore kit for my commercial boat, and pay to dispose of my unused flares, again. Steve Callaghan did have an Epirb which wasn't useful.
Mark-1
Well-known member
A lot of sailing books back in the day featured flares being fired and not being seen. As quoted above Callahan did it over and over again. David Lewis (or was it David Mercy) fired flares and got burns but no help. I'm pretty sure the Baileys or Robertsons had the same. I'm sure there were others. The only person I've ever known who let off flares in a real mayday wasn't found due the the flares. In contrast from all the sailing literature I've read over the years I don't recall a single flare triggering a rescue.
From the other point of view the logs of every lifeboat station back in the day are full of launches for flares where nothing was found. I wonder how often there's a search of an epirb where nothing is found?
I'd love to know the ratio of "nothing found" to "successful rescues" was back in the day. 10-1?
I'm sure a smoke flare in a busy area would attract curiosity in a busy area but then so would hoisting oilies to the spreaders or waving or a whistle. If a combination of VHF/EPIRB/PLB/Mobile phone can't attact attention, well maybe it's not your day.
What about those of us who sail with our kids? My 8yo son can use mobile phone VHF and (like me) is familiar with both, he can mange them unsupervised in an emergency. (Or not in an emergency.) Would I trust him to let off flares while I tended to a snapped seacock? Would I ****. I wouldn't even fancy it myself.
As for the plan to let of a flare and hope someone in sight with a mobile phone or VHF saw it and called it in. Well, if that's the plan why don't I just use my own mobile phone and VHF? I'm literally within sight.
Flares are a communication mechanism. They're broadcasting your position and the fact you need help. We have better communication methods.
Sorry for the anti flare rant, but once I started I couldn't stop.
From the other point of view the logs of every lifeboat station back in the day are full of launches for flares where nothing was found. I wonder how often there's a search of an epirb where nothing is found?
I'd love to know the ratio of "nothing found" to "successful rescues" was back in the day. 10-1?
I'm sure a smoke flare in a busy area would attract curiosity in a busy area but then so would hoisting oilies to the spreaders or waving or a whistle. If a combination of VHF/EPIRB/PLB/Mobile phone can't attact attention, well maybe it's not your day.
What about those of us who sail with our kids? My 8yo son can use mobile phone VHF and (like me) is familiar with both, he can mange them unsupervised in an emergency. (Or not in an emergency.) Would I trust him to let off flares while I tended to a snapped seacock? Would I ****. I wouldn't even fancy it myself.
As for the plan to let of a flare and hope someone in sight with a mobile phone or VHF saw it and called it in. Well, if that's the plan why don't I just use my own mobile phone and VHF? I'm literally within sight.
Flares are a communication mechanism. They're broadcasting your position and the fact you need help. We have better communication methods.
Sorry for the anti flare rant, but once I started I couldn't stop.
Mark-1
Well-known member
EDIT: Mouthing off without checking.
Last edited:
Mark-1
Well-known member
Last time I saw a flare display the guy wore protective glasses, thick long gauntlets and had two buckets of sand.
It wasn't screaming "safe" to me.
38mess
Well-known member
I suggest you re read it then
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Pretty sure Cheeki Rafiki incident, which was PLBs, did not cause the search craft to find the persons, that was based on a search pattern as a result of the position from the satellite calls.
Anyone who thinks that flares are the best method would simply be wrong. However, they are a method and there are circumstances where they will be better than nothing.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
I have the same in my flare box, except for the sand. I also know how to use them to reduce the probability of a misfire striking me. They are safe to use.
Mark-1
Well-known member
Checked - you're right, I'm wrong. ....and I hadn't clocked that you're the guy who's currently reading it which should have beem a clue.
Mark-1
Well-known member
As you say, a PLB isn't an Epirb.
Bobc
Well-known member
I agree with the OP, but would keep a floating smoke too for location purposes.
Supertramp
Well-known member
My PLB lives on my life jacket (which is worn). My EPIRB lives on the boat. At the very least if I go over the crew can activate the EPIRB.
It's hard to cover every imagineable scenario, but I agree that a hydrostatic release and activation system is a very useful addition.
onesea
Well-known member
My Money is on these as flares:
Personal Distress Signal - Pains Wessex - Marine Signal & Rescue Products
Electronic can get help near these can pin point. If your near the coast they may get the help rolling.
Personal Distress Signal - Pains Wessex - Marine Signal & Rescue Products
Electronic can get help near these can pin point. If your near the coast they may get the help rolling.
B27
Well-known member
Yes, there was a yacht with jammed steering in imminent danger of going on Hayling beach.
Anchor had been deployed but wasn't working.
Couple of RIBS and a gin palace responded in minutes, boat saved by brute horsepower.
Bloke I sailed with a few times was driving one of the RIBs.
Many years ago, a good friend was sailing into Plymouth, got rope or something round the prop, no wind, lots of rocks about. Let off a flare, got mobbed by several 'Men In Black' boats.
A club member who was Navy alleges his ship would have run down a boat had it not fired some Schermuly at them.
TBH, these days, my mobile tends to have better signal on the water than it does at home.
My sailing club whatsapp and facebook groups are well stocked with lifeboat chaps.
999 'coastguard' will probably do the job a lot of the time.
The EPIRB/PLB system is very good, but it was designed in about 1960 to work for ships out in the ocean. It's not envisaged as a fast response system. My local lifeboat has saved people due to an EPIRB alert though.