North Wales Berthing & Mooring options/Realistic Passage Planning

[salad]

I spent 3 years with a Sailing boat in the Orwell and a 200 mile commute and didn't by any means see everything that their was to see, I think you might be missing a trick there.

It's far more attractive, available, unrestricted better weather better amenities and at the risk of being shot welcoming. It wasn't my first choice but I went to the East Coast for a change and to visit places where I spent my childhood summers, overall I wasn't disappointed but had I continued to sail ( another story) I would have moved on either back to Devon / Cornwall, the West Coast of Scotland or France.

I will certainly take it into consideration and have a look.

To solve this little quandry, I think we're going to have to get creative. Unless it's Hartlepool or Hull, weekending Friday to Sunday doesnt' look like a viable option at all based on what you chaps have said and the Google estimates I've been running. Even Fleetwood is a solid 3 hours at peak times, likely more in reality. Too far for me, for just a single days cruising.

The answer may be that for a single weekend between the school hols, the kids have 2 days off school, which avoids the weekend rush entirely and the longer duration of a trip away, say Thursday through Monday, means options to travel further afield. Add to that a possible 17 days at easter, 7 for summer half term and an 8 week summer, it might make longer distance ownership viable.

Whilst I realise that most of the above is probably incredibly boring to anyone but me, I've written it out anyway, on the offchance it helps some poor soul from Leeds in the future.

It's funny you should mention the west coast of Scotland. That's where all this began. We had a little rib we'd take out on the Mull. It was fabulous fun so always wanted a step up. Originally intended to keep a sailing yacht in Inverkip and we likely will, in a decade or so.

 

[Tranona]

Maybe you need to rethink your plans as being located where you are is not good for the sort of usage you want. Even if you could find a marina berth in N Wales, the idea that you could reliably do a 2 week trip down that coast in a 7/8m motorboat with children is stretching it. That is a very exposed coast, seas are big and currents strong around headlands. You would have to pick your weather carefully and the chances of getting 10 or 12 days in a row where you could do a passage highly unlikely. Even with a bigger boat it would be a challenge.

Might be possible where I live in Poole, but even with all the choices of places to go, short distances between and more benign weather very few people cruise in boats like that. OK pottering around the Solent as there are plenty of places to anchor, but even going from Poole to the Solent (15 miles) is a challenge for many. There are plenty of the sort of boat you might be looking at based in Poole and the majority never go far but mainly out for a blast in the bay, a bit of fishing, anchoring in Studland (when we could) or in the many harbour anchorages to stay overnight. Maybe one or 2 trips a year east or west for a couple of days if the weather is good. Expect this week and next many will take advantage of the high pressure and pop down the coast to Lulworth or Weymouth - and talk about it for years afterwards.

As others have suggested consider chartering in the Med - great family holidays and cost less than owning and parking a boat in a place where you are unlikely to get the sort of usage you are expecting.

 

[dunedin]

Many from Leeds area and thereabouts keep boats in the Clyde. Further distance by car but often easier due to lack of traffic. And all marinas have all tide access, plus very sheltered waters with masses of destinations gives lots of opportunities for maximising sailing time.

 

[oldharry]

Tranona makes the point I was going to raise if based in Holyhead or around the Menai: its very exposed, and the currents round both South Stack and Badsey are very strong. People who know reckon Bardsey Sound can be worse than Portland, and even at 16kts its a long way round south of the Island to get clear of the (very) rough water. Just to add interest Bardsey has a whirlpool at Myndd Ddu which while not as violent as Corryvreckan, can be in the same category in certain conditions. This is an area to be avoided by even medium sized awb's at the wrong times. So heading South is governed by tides and weather, and weather can change suddenly and dramatically on this coast.

Also there is the weather itself: Wales would be a top holiday area if only it would reliably stop raining.....

Total Fred drift but worth it: I heard this VHF conversation many years ago in Portmadoc bay: (1980's?) Attractive female voice: "Holyhead coastguard, Holyhead coastguard, this is Holyhead mobile. I am unable to receive you in this position." A voice promptly replied "What position would you like then, dear?" Long silence.......

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Tranona makes the point I was going to raise if based in Holyhead or around the Menai: its very exposed, and the currents round both South Stack and Badsey are very strong. People who know reckon Bardsey Sound can be worse than Portland, and even at 16kts its a long way round south of the Island to get clear of the (very) rough water. Just to add interest Bardsey has a whirlpool at Myndd Ddu which while not as violent as Corryvreckan, can be in the same category in certain conditions. This is an area to be avoided by even medium sized awb's at the wrong times. So heading South is governed by tides and weather, and weather can change suddenly and dramatically on this coast.

Also there is the weather itself: Wales would be a top holiday area if only it would reliably stop raining.....

Total Fred drift but worth it: I heard this VHF conversation many years ago in Portmadoc bay: (1980's?) Attractive female voice: "Holyhead coastguard, Holyhead coastguard, this is Holyhead mobile. I am unable to receive you in this position." A voice promptly replied "What position would you like then, dear?" Long silence.......

I think you paint a very bleak picture of cruising in North Wales. I ran a RIB diving there for many years, Did the round Anglesey race several times in a variety of boats including a Westerly Pagent Drift dived through Bardsey Sound on springs etc. With a little care and planning there is not a lot to be overly concerned about.

 

[oldharry]

I think you paint a very bleak picture of cruising in North Wales. I ran a RIB diving there for many years, Did the round Anglesey race several times in a variety of boats including a Westerly Pagent Drift dived through Bardsey Sound on springs etc. With a little care and planning there is not a lot to be overly concerned about.

Agreed, but OP was confidently quoting theoretical passage times. In a 7 -8m power boat they are not realistic. His 16kts will easily be reduced by <30% over a significant part of the passage through very exposed waters. I learned to sail in Cardigan bay as a boy, so unless things have changed significantly since I was last there 20 years ago...

 

[salad]

Maybe you need to rethink your plans as being located where you are is not good for the sort of usage you want. Even if you could find a marina berth in N Wales, the idea that you could reliably do a 2 week trip down that coast in a 7/8m motorboat with children is stretching it. That is a very exposed coast, seas are big and currents strong around headlands. You would have to pick your weather carefully and the chances of getting 10 or 12 days in a row where you could do a passage highly unlikely. Even with a bigger boat it would be a challenge.

Might be possible where I live in Poole, but even with all the choices of places to go, short distances between and more benign weather very few people cruise in boats like that. OK pottering around the Solent as there are plenty of places to anchor, but even going from Poole to the Solent (15 miles) is a challenge for many. There are plenty of the sort of boat you might be looking at based in Poole and the majority never go far but mainly out for a blast in the bay, a bit of fishing, anchoring in Studland (when we could) or in the many harbour anchorages to stay overnight. Maybe one or 2 trips a year east or west for a couple of days if the weather is good. Expect this week and next many will take advantage of the high pressure and pop down the coast to Lulworth or Weymouth - and talk about it for years afterwards.

As others have suggested consider chartering in the Med - great family holidays and cost less than owning and parking a boat in a place where you are unlikely to get the sort of usage you are expecting.

Great insight. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I accept what you're saying about exposed seas and that side of the country does tend to get a lot more weather than we do here in Leeds. The Pennines moderate much of the wet weather that our relatives over near Preston are subjected to. I had no reason to believe the Irish Sea would be any different really and those passages were posted for exactly the kind of feedback you offered

This is a very difficult choice to make because the compromises aren't particularly small.

If we're travelling 4 hours off-peak to get there and having a minimum of 4 or 5 days each trip, then it opens up all manner of possibilities, including the south coast. I still favour a motor boat initially, simply due to the fact that the ease of operation and my limited previous experience would mean I could spend more time focusing on aspects of seamanship, rather than having to worry about learning to sail at the same time. RYA courses will be done in any case starting with pb2 and then sailing tickets. I am fortunate enough to have a close friend who is an experienced professional skipper and MCA master (sail). He's indicated he would be willing to help train me, so I have that in my favour and over the years, I feel I'd be able to progress well.

I think there are simply so many options, its overwhelming at the moment. With the new strategy, sail comes back into play. Talk about procrastinating, but it's such an important decision for us.

Can I ask why people tend not to cruise motorboats down around the solent and why 15 miles would be a challenge for many? Doesn't seem very far to me and you get some decent weather? Is it just busy?

I fully intend to use any boat to as close to full capability as my skill allows, so I wont be crossing the channel in the first year, but I surely would want to once I have some sea miles under my belt in a couple of years. After that, when the kids are at uni, it will be a whole different ball game and I can see us buying a 40 foot sail boat and cruising europe wide but that takes a lot of time, sea miles and training.

Charter isn't something I'd do at the moment, simply because I don't have the experience to do so with confidence. I think I need my own boat if I'm ever going to get serious about this as I can train on it also. Thats the plan at least.

 

[ridgy]

Oh wow, don't buy anything. Spend some time at sea on other people's boats both sail and power. Your last post makes it clear that you have no experience of open sea passages and why you think it is totally reasonable to have a summer holiday from North Wales to cornwall and back on a 7m boat in 2 weeks. Nobody here thinks that is reasonable given vagaries of the weather.
You don't even have PB2 which is only a basic boat handling course nothing to do with the sea. You need day skipper theory absolute minimum as well for what you consider.

The training is easy enough, power or sail, but you need to experience a long passage at sea to understand the misery of it in only slightly adverse conditions especially if children are aboard.

I would spend a lot more time with your friend. Charter something with him as skipper and see how you go as a family.

At the moment you are seriously fantasising both about the destinations and the travel arrangements.

 

[Salt'n'shaken]

It can be very hard for kids, even on short passages. Once there is the slightest bit of wave action they have to be sitting in the cockpit looking at the horizon, as down below they get sick too easily.

Couple of hours is about the limit for a passage for primary school kids I find.

Cruising the Med or Caribbean on a charter is a very different proposition to the Irish Sea in a 7-8m boat. Get your Dayskipper and it'll open up loads more exciting possibilities than Hartlepool or Conwy (no offence to those towns intended).

 

[salad]

Oh wow, don't buy anything. Spend some time at sea on other people's boats both sail and power. Your last post makes it clear that you have no experience of open sea passages and why you think it is totally reasonable to have a summer holiday from North Wales to cornwall and back on a 7m boat in 2 weeks. Nobody here thinks that is reasonable given vagaries of the weather.
You don't even have PB2 which is only a basic boat handling course nothing to do with the sea. You need day skipper theory absolute minimum as well for what you consider.

The training is easy enough, power or sail, but you need to experience a long passage at sea to understand the misery of it in only slightly adverse conditions especially if children are aboard.

I would spend a lot more time with your friend. Charter something with him as skipper and see how you go as a family.

At the moment you are seriously fantasising both about the destinations and the travel arrangements.

This is why I asked

I appreciate the grounding in reality.

 

[salad]

It can be very hard for kids, even on short passages. Once there is the slightest bit of wave action they have to be sitting in the cockpit looking at the horizon, as down below they get sick too easily.

Couple of hours is about the limit for a passage for primary school kids I find.

Cruising the Med or Caribbean on a charter is a very different proposition to the Irish Sea in a 7-8m boat. Get your Dayskipper and it'll open up loads more exciting possibilities than Hartlepool or Conwy (no offence to those towns intended).

Am I correct in thinking that the south coast would be sort of in the middle between the irish sea and the med in cruising terms and broadly speaking?

 

[Tranona]

Great insight. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I accept what you're saying about exposed seas and that side of the country does tend to get a lot more weather than we do here in Leeds. The Pennines moderate much of the wet weather that our relatives over near Preston are subjected to. I had no reason to believe the Irish Sea would be any different really and those passages were posted for exactly the kind of feedback you offered

This is a very difficult choice to make because the compromises aren't particularly small.

If we're travelling 4 hours off-peak to get there and having a minimum of 4 or 5 days each trip, then it opens up all manner of possibilities, including the south coast. I still favour a motor boat initially, simply due to the fact that the ease of operation and my limited previous experience would mean I could spend more time focusing on aspects of seamanship, rather than having to worry about learning to sail at the same time. RYA courses will be done in any case starting with pb2 and then sailing tickets. I am fortunate enough to have a close friend who is an experienced professional skipper and MCA master (sail). He's indicated he would be willing to help train me, so I have that in my favour and over the years, I feel I'd be able to progress well.

I think there are simply so many options, its overwhelming at the moment. With the new strategy, sail comes back into play. Talk about procrastinating, but it's such an important decision for us.

Can I ask why people tend not to cruise motorboats down around the solent and why 15 miles would be a challenge for many? Doesn't seem very far to me and you get some decent weather? Is it just busy?

I fully intend to use any boat to as close to full capability as my skill allows, so I wont be crossing the channel in the first year, but I surely would want to once I have some sea miles under my belt in a couple of years. After that, when the kids are at uni, it will be a whole different ball game and I can see us buying a 40 foot sail boat and cruising europe wide but that takes a lot of time, sea miles and training.

Charter isn't something I'd do at the moment, simply because I don't have the experience to do so with confidence. I think I need my own boat if I'm ever going to get serious about this as I can train on it also. Thats the plan at least.

Living where you do means keeping a boat on the coast where you can get the type of use you want with your family is a real challenge. The combination of long car journeys and limitations of tide and weather mean in a weekend you may not get any meaningful boating at all and your family will very quickly go off the idea.

Why don't people cruise in boats that size? well, they are cramped and uncomfortable in any kind of sea and uncomfortable at anchor. Plus nothing for the kids to do. Tolerable for pottering up and down rivers and quick blasts from one marina to another with an overnight stay, but a week on board would be another effective way of putting your family off. When you get 10m or so and above then cruising starts to work, but that is a whole new level of cost and complication, particularly with a powerboat.

Why is 15 miles a potential challenge? well in benign weather it is not - an hour from the entrance to Poole and the entrance to the Solent. Then spend the day pottering around the fleshpots of Lymington or Yarmouth or a quick run up the river to see how the rich like Lord Montague live. Then about 5 or 6 you get to Hurst Castle and find the tide is now going out and the SW wind is blowing 12 or 15 knots. An unpleasant 2 1/2 hours later you creep back into Poole, boat covered with salt spray, every bone in your body creaking and the kids saying why do we have to do this Dad! Particularly bad about 1/3 of the way across when you go over Christchurch Ledge and you have to drop to displacement speed while the boat falls into troughs so deep you can't see over the top. This is not an exaggeration but based on real events. Several places down the Welsh coast where you might meet similar conditions.

These days, unless you are experienced and already have a boat that you family will buy into far and away the best way to get them interested is to go on a charter holiday, maybe one week on land with boat tuition for everybody and a week on a boat on your own. Even if they don't take to it it will still be a good holiday. If they do, next year do a flotilla so they (and you) mix with like minded people. If all goes well, that might be time to think about owning your own boat.

 

[salad]

Living where you do means keeping a boat on the coast where you can get the type of use you want with your family is a real challenge. The combination of long car journeys and limitations of tide and weather mean in a weekend you may not get any meaningful boating at all and your family will very quickly go off the idea.

Why don't people cruise in boats that size? well, they are cramped and uncomfortable in any kind of sea and uncomfortable at anchor. Plus nothing for the kids to do. Tolerable for pottering up and down rivers and quick blasts from one marina to another with an overnight stay, but a week on board would be another effective way of putting your family off. When you get 10m or so and above then cruising starts to work, but that is a whole new level of cost and complication, particularly with a powerboat.

Why is 15 miles a potential challenge? well in benign weather it is not - an hour from the entrance to Poole and the entrance to the Solent. Then spend the day pottering around the fleshpots of Lymington or Yarmouth or a quick run up the river to see how the rich like Lord Montague live. Then about 5 or 6 you get to Hurst Castle and find the tide is now going out and the SW wind is blowing 12 or 15 knots. An unpleasant 2 1/2 hours later you creep back into Poole, boat covered with salt spray, every bone in your body creaking and the kids saying why do we have to do this Dad! Particularly bad about 1/3 of the way across when you go over Christchurch Ledge and you have to drop to displacement speed while the boat falls into troughs so deep you can't see over the top. This is not an exaggeration but based on real events. Several places down the Welsh coast where you might meet similar conditions.

These days, unless you are experienced and already have a boat that you family will buy into far and away the best way to get them interested is to go on a charter holiday, maybe one week on land with boat tuition for everybody and a week on a boat on your own. Even if they don't take to it it will still be a good holiday. If they do, next year do a flotilla so they (and you) mix with like minded people. If all goes well, that might be time to think about owning your own boat.

In your view, how would an 8m powerboat perform down there when compared to a 36ft yacht? When you're starting from scratch, it's very difficult to know the ins and outs of even the most basic things, so all the information you guys are posting here is valuable. I'm not just posting without having done any research, it's just hard to distill both our requirements and the ins and outs of a first boat and all that goes with it.

Your scenario about a day out is interesting, but would you suddenly find yourself in a 15 knot wind without being aware beforehand due to shipping forecasts or doppler? Software is so advanced these days, I thought it would be more of a factor in these matters, aside from the odd freak occurrance?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Your scenario about a day out is interesting, but would you suddenly find yourself in a 15 knot wind without being aware beforehand due to shipping forecasts or doppler? Software is so advanced these days, I thought it would be more of a factor in these matters, aside from the odd freak occurrance?

If you only go out on days when the wind is forecast to be below 15 knots there will be lots of days you don't go. On those days that you don't go because of the forecast there will be plenty of days when the predicted wind didn't arrive. Similarly, on the days when you do go out on account of a benign forecast, there will be plenty of days when the wind is stronger and it all gets a bit unpleasant.

Weather forecasts are good at predicting gales and the big nasty stuff. Middle strength winds and below - meh. It's still all just a guess, and often wrong.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

In your view, how would an 8m powerboat perform down there when compared to a 36ft yacht? When you're starting from scratch, it's very difficult to know the ins and outs of even the most basic things, so all the information you guys are posting here is valuable. I'm not just posting without having done any research, it's just hard to distill both our requirements and the ins and outs of a first boat and all that goes with it.

Your scenario about a day out is interesting, but would you suddenly find yourself in a 15 knot wind without being aware beforehand due to shipping forecasts or doppler? Software is so advanced these days, I thought it would be more of a factor in these matters, aside from the odd freak occurrance?

You could try posting on the Motor Boat forum and ask their opinions about 8M mobos and cruising, most on this forum will be sailors.

 

[Salt'n'shaken]

Am I correct in thinking that the south coast would be sort of in the middle between the irish sea and the med in cruising terms and broadly speaking?

Depends where you go. Strong tides and lots of shipping generally, but also lots of sand and mud bottoms when in close. Solent is so popular because it's sheltered with lots of places to stop off.

No tides and less changeable weather in the Med and Adriatic.

I'd thoroughly recommend doing a day skipper theory. I did mine online and learnt a lot.

 

[Salt'n'shaken]

As a boat owner, I completely understand the desire to want to own your own though.

What about Windermere for your home berth and weekend jaunts, then chartering abroad for bigger adventures? That's my general plan, just swap Windermere for Lyme Bay.

 

[salad]

Depends where you go. Strong tides and lots of shipping generally, but also lots of sand and mud bottoms when in close. Solent is so popular because it's sheltered with lots of places to stop off.

No tides and less changeable weather in the Med and Adriatic.

I'd thoroughly recommend doing a day skipper theory. I did mine online and learnt a lot.

Food for thought. I thought we had a monopoly on mud up here along the Holderness coast. I thought the areas exposed to the atlantic current would be less inclined to have so much mud unless in an estuary, but you do have a lot of rivers in that area also. The only time I've visited that area was on a yacht as a passenger and we berthed on the Hamble for a couple of days. Beautiful place, I can see the attraction despite a bit of mud.

I've already made a start on the RYA courses and finished the first one, plus the commercial STCW95 course. I'm familiar with the materials for coastal skipper so might pass on day skipper, depending on how things go but it's not so expensive so might be worth doing all of them. It's terrific fun and I'm in no rush.

 

[salad]

As a boat owner, I completely understand the desire to want to own your own though.

What about Windermere for your home berth and weekend jaunts, then chartering abroad for bigger adventures? That's my general plan, just swap Windermere for Lyme Bay.

It would be fine for sailing but the speed limit is too low for any real size of motorboat to cruise. At least it was last time I checked. They killed their own waterskiing industry.

 

[salad]

If you only go out on days when the wind is forecast to be below 15 knots there will be lots of days you don't go. On those days that you don't go because of the forecast there will be plenty of days when the predicted wind didn't arrive. Similarly, on the days when you do go out on account of a benign forecast, there will be plenty of days when the wind is stronger and it all gets a bit unpleasant.

Weather forecasts are good at predicting gales and the big nasty stuff. Middle strength winds and below - meh. It's still all just a guess, and often wrong.

When we talk about wind speed in this context, do sailors typically refer to the max gusting speed, or sustained? Both are of relevant I am sure, but in the example you gave of 15 knots, did you mean sustained?