New Greek "Duty" on Yachts Announced

[ASW11]

not having left my boat in Greece before - is it similar to Turkey where you put the boat in BOND - before you leave the country - you just surrender your transit log to the marina who also have copies of all the relevant documents - insurance - registration document - the only thing they could loose would be the transit log and they are easily replaceable

Aye, well, certainly that's true for some areas of Turkey - but is not so for all. Have had a couple of rounds with Turkish customs and the Police locally here in Turgutreis, all to no avail with nearest I can get is to pay a fine if the transit log expires while away ("it will only be a small amount") and, only when the boat is out of the water and being left is it necessary to put it in bond. No amount of discussion could improve on this and I reckon I was pretty close to p*****g 'em off with goodness knows what consequences. I retired bemused!

Reckon the workings of Med minds are, 'erm, "different" to us Westerners who have a preference for clear procedures to follow. Maybe we should all just get used to "the fact" that either we can respond to a local interpretation or make a career out of giving ourselves head aches. Good luck to the CA in their efforts

 

[Tony Cross]

not having left my boat in Greece before - is it similar to Turkey where you put the boat in BOND - before you leave the country - you just surrender your transit log to the marina who also have copies of all the relevant documents - insurance - registration document - the only thing they could loose would be the transit log and they are easily replaceable

Yes and no (and remember this is just a proposal).

Yes because you will need to deposit your documents (registration as well as DEKPA/Transit Log and possibly insurance - it's likely to be all documents that you need to use the boat) with the PP.

No because it's not 'out of the country' as it would be in a customs bond (it's just 'out of use').

 

[OldBawley]

In that case one solution to avoid the proposed tax is to hand in the papers and sail / liveaboard without. No policing for the big guys, so far no policing for yachts.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Yes and no (and remember this is just a proposal).

Yes because you will need to deposit your documents (registration as well as DEKPA/Transit Log and possibly insurance - it's likely to be all documents that you need to use the boat) with the PP.

No because it's not 'out of the country' as it would be in a customs bond (it's just 'out of use').

Or make copy of everything except DeKPT and just hand over the copy

 

[Tony Cross]

Or make copy of everything except DeKPT and just hand over the copy

Hmmmm. But one of the proposed changes I was hearing about (indeed it might already be in place) is electronic registration of vessels in Greece. This is I understand one reason why DEKPA forms are as rare as hen's teeth - because the online system doesn't require them. If that happens, and frankly it's almost inevitable, sailing whilst 'out of use' would be fairly easy for them to track.

 

[Carmel2]

Computerise the PP, re train them to use it instead of the beloved Skag ring binders, I think we will all be dead before that is up and running like clock work...

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hmmmm. But one of the proposed changes I was hearing about (indeed it might already be in place) is electronic registration of vessels in Greece. This is I understand one reason why DEKPA forms are as rare as hen's teeth - because the online system doesn't require them. If that happens, and frankly it's almost inevitable, sailing whilst 'out of use' would be fairly easy for them to track.

I wouldn't be happy hand over bill of sale or the orguine document , they can keep insurance and reg doc , no problem I can always get copy of them if they lost them .
Can you imagine trying to get hold of VAT doc if they where lost ? .
Re any info they may have on their Register , it only show name , reg of boat and owner poss owner Address and passport number .
They wouldn't know it the doc you hand over where copy or not , If they done right .

 

[Tony Cross]

I wouldn't be happy hand over bill of sale or the orguine document , they can keep insurance and reg doc , no problem I can always get copy of them if they lost them .
Can you imagine trying to get hold of VAT doc if they where lost ? .
Re any info they may have on their Register , it only show name , reg of boat and owner poss owner Address and passport number .
They wouldn't know it the doc you hand over where copy or not , If they done right .

None of us really know what documents they'll require nor how easy it would be to get copies etc. nor how closely they will police 'out of use'. Personally I think we should be much more concerned with the inherent unfairness in the tax levels, but that's because my boat is over 12m .

 

[sailaboutvic]

None of us really know what documents they'll require nor how easy it would be to get copies etc. nor how closely they will police 'out of use'. Personally I think we should be much more concerned with the inherent unfairness in the tax levels, but that's because my boat is over 12m .

Tony. I was moaning about how unfair the tax is. last time it was on the cards and I shot down by people who thought that because it was ok for them then the rest of us need to shut up or move on ,
Now it effecting them I see most of them are moan too now .
It's a case of I'm ok Jack .
I think the whole thing is unfair , as I keep saying , we only tourist in Greece , and if they want to tax people for coming to Greece then they should tax everyone on a dayly based .
But off cause they won't because people will stop coming .
I still don't think this tax will not come in , nothing to do with the CA ,STW or anyone else , and if by any chance it does ,I think people will more out to cheaper and better places and , once there it will hit them that Greece isn't the only place in the Med that as a great cruising ground .
Ok rant over , back to sorting out boat for Croatia before we lost what's left of the southerly winds and end up motoring .

 

[Chris_Robb]

Tony. I was moaning about how unfair the tax is. last time it was on the cards and I shot down by people who thought that because it was ok for them then the rest of us need to shut up or move on ,
Now it effecting them I see most of them are moan too now .
It's a case of I'm ok Jack .
I think the whole thing is unfair , as I keep saying , we only tourist in Greece , and if they want to tax people for coming to Greece then they should tax everyone on a dayly based .
But off cause they won't because people will stop coming .
I still don't think this tax will not come in , nothing to do with the CA ,STW or anyone else , and if by any chance it does ,I think people will more out to cheaper and better places and , once there it will hit them that Greece isn't the only place in the Med that as a great cruising ground .
Ok rant over , back to sorting out boat for Croatia before we lost what's left of the southerly winds and end up motoring .

Vic, I think they are making a big mistake. We have moved to Turkey at the moment and find everything cheaper especially eating out. I was quite surprised when we dropped in at Simi just how much their prices had increased. It just shows you how impossible it is for Greeks to devalue within the EURO. If they don't have cheaper eating etc they will NEVER get back the mass tourism of the past. Right now Simi is suffering from the mass exit of boats from Turkey, and the miss impression that the eastern Greek islands will have problems with migrants.

What is a joy here in Turkey is that you can actually get work done on your boat....... something that seems strangely amiss in Greece and was very frustrating. I suspect we will not bring the boat back to Greece except for summer sailing and keep it here is Yat Marine which is a great set up.

A great number of boats have left Turkey, but they will be back especially of the Greeks actually manage to impose this tax.

 

[Tony Cross]

Tony. I was moaning about how unfair the tax is. last time it was on the cards and I shot down by people who thought that because it was ok for them then the rest of us need to shut up or move on ,
Now it effecting them I see most of them are moan too now .
It's a case of I'm ok Jack .
I think the whole thing is unfair , as I keep saying , we only tourist in Greece , and if they want to tax people for coming to Greece then they should tax everyone on a dayly based .
But off cause they won't because people will stop coming .
I still don't think this tax will not come in , nothing to do with the CA ,STW or anyone else , and if by any chance it does ,I think people will more out to cheaper and better places and , once there it will hit them that Greece isn't the only place in the Med that as a great cruising ground .
Ok rant over , back to sorting out boat for Croatia before we lost what's left of the southerly winds and end up motoring .

The whole point of these attempts at a global cruising tax is not specifically to raise revenue from visiting sailors, it's not intended as a 'tourist tax' as you suggest. To be honest, I don't think that visiting sailors count for much to the Greek government, the businesses that we help keep afloat are, I suspect, small potatoes in the bigger scheme of things and if we all left Greece I very much doubt that the Greek government would even notice. They certainly wouldn't care.

This tax, like all the other attempts before it, is designed to tax the great many Greeks who own (mostly) large motor yachts and who, through various techniques, have avoided paying the luxury tax on boats that has existed in Greece for a good many years. It was the previous PASOK government I think, who first came up with the idea of taxing every vessel in Greek waters as a means of ensuring that Greek taxpayers could not escape it. Successive ND and SYRIZA governments have gone along with this basic principle simply because it's the only one that will work.

You are quite right that external influences, like the CA, have not been able to stop this tax. Nor will they ever I suspect, unless they can show that it is unlawful under EU law (which I doubt). It has always been the rich and influential Greek boat owners who have, through fair means or foul, managed to prevent the previous iterations of this tax being implemented. I am quite sure that it is only these influential Greeks who will be able to stop this one.

That said, the CA in particular has in the past managed to get changes made to previous iterations and, most importantly, were solely responsible for getting port reporting procedures changed - which is why we no longer have to check in and out of each port, nor get a DEKPA stamp every 30 days. Engaging with the Greek government does produce results, even if they are not the results one hoped for.

I sympathise Vic, I really do. I don't want this tax either but I'm also quite sure that, sooner or later, the Greeks will get one to stick, and I don't think all the kicking and screaming in the world from foreign yacht owners will make a scrap of difference. When the dust settles the number of foreign boats that do actually leave will be tiny, I'm pretty sure that the Greek government might even suspect that already.

When faced with a tax that is likely to be implemented at some point, even if it's not this one, it's more sensible to engage and try to make it fair and affordable, there is at least a small chance of success there. If all the foreign boat owners ever do is complain that they're tourists and they don't want to be taxed at all, the Greek government (of whatever flavour) will very quickly stop listening to us altogether. If that happens it will not be possible for anyone to achieve the small, but very significant, changes which the CA has already accomplished.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I acknowledge the hard work the CA have done toward the tax in Greece , and has I said in the past we all have a lot to be thankful for what Chris and others have work so hard for , given their time for free .
Putting that to one side ?
I think you could be mistaken how much it would effect Greece if private yachts ( not Liveaboard) left Greece it would damage if not kill a lot of business ,
Would the government care ? Well that's another thing .
yes there are thousands Greek yacht but there also many thousands private yacht for all over the world ,
just in Aug alone how many Italian yacht turn up .

It may be a case as you say that they want to tax Greek boat owner ,but that very easy , put an tax on mooring fees , be it in Marina or town walls , Greek keep yacht in Greek Marina so by taxing Marina berth , they catch the Greek owners , and if these Greek owner didn't kept there boat in Greece then the tax isn't going to be any good any way because they are still not going to get the tax off them .
Let's take your Crete Marina , it's fully book for the winter , and now they are taken booking for next year as we know , remove all the private non Greek yachts , would it still be fully booked ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

another greek cock up

On another note .
Some Dutch friend when in to Gouvia Marina over the weekend to get an stamp , there have been out of Greece for two years , the girl in the office insis they had to pay a 5000 euro fine because the haven't had a stamp which she went on to say they needed once a year , there explain that they haven't been in Greece even showing her the Marina contact in Sicily but she still insisted they had to pay , cut a long story short , in the end a senior officer turned up and agree if they just paid 15 euros they would over look it .
Talk about them having no idea what they are doing .
Samathan tabbs back me up .
Maybe here a good reason to get an exit stamp when you leave .

 

[Tony Cross]

I acknowledge the hard work the CA have done toward the tax in Greece , and has I said in the past we all have a lot to be thankful for what Chris and others have work so hard for , given their time for free .
Putting that to one side ?
I think you could be mistaken how much it would effect Greece if private yachts ( not Liveaboard) left Greece it would damage if not kill a lot of business ,
Would the government care ? Well that's another thing .
yes there are thousands Greek yacht but there also many thousands private yacht for all over the world ,
just in Aug alone how many Italian yacht turn up .

It may be a case as you say that they want to tax Greek boat owner ,but that very easy , put an tax on mooring fees , be it in Marina or town walls , Greek keep yacht in Greek Marina so by taxing Marina berth , they catch the Greek owners , and if these Greek owner didn't kept there boat in Greece then the tax isn't going to be any good any way because they are still not going to get the tax off them .
Let's take your Crete Marina , it's fully book for the winter , and now they are taken booking for next year as we know , remove all the private non Greek yachts , would it still be fully booked ?

This doesn't seem to make sense Vic. You seemed earlier to be opposed to any form of taxation on visiting yachts and now you're suggesting they transfer the tax to marinas. Except for those few who keep their boats at anchor over winter or in a port that makes no charge, everyone winters their boat in a marina and will thus pay your tax. How is that better?

I concede that some yachting businesses (and marinas) would be hit hard if all the foreign yachts left, but since that won't happen (some will leave but most will stay I'm quite sure) it's a bit of a moot point. In any case the Greek government won't care either way. The charter companies will still bring in lots and lots of revenue and the extra tax they'll get from the Greek boat owners will easily cover the losses from a few foreign boats leaving.

Regarding the marina here, you wouldn't ask that question if you'd been here. Foreign owned boats make up over 50% of the boats here, but that includes all the 7m and 8m Greek-owned 'recreational fishing boats' that are rarely used. If every Greek owned boat left this marina it would still be full every winter. There is a longish waiting list already......

 

[sailaboutvic]

R"" This doesn't seem to make sense Vic. You seemed earlier to be opposed to any form of taxation on visiting yachts and now you're suggesting they transfer the tax to marinas. Except for those few who keep their boats at anchor over winter or in a port that makes no charge, everyone winters their boat in a marina and will thus pay your tax. How is that better?""

I am opposed to the tax Tony 100% my reply was to your statement that the only reason for this tax was to tax Greek boat owner and the government aren't really interest in foreign boat but The only way they can get the tax is by charging everyone .
So if the tax when on mooring fee they will get the money from Greek because as I said Greek keep there boat in Greece . Yes it also mean any foreign boat moor in Greece will be tax , but we all have the option to winter else where , and cruiser the summer with out being tax .

"" I concede that some yachting businesses (and marinas) would be hit hard if all the foreign yachts left, but since that won't happen (some will leave but most will stay I'm quite sure) ""

Only time will tell my friend

"Regarding the marina here, you wouldn't ask that question if you'd been here. Foreign owned boats make up over 50% of the boats here, but that includes all the 7m and 8m Greek-owned 'recreational fishing boats' that are rarely used. If every Greek owned boat left this marina it would still be full every winter. There is a longish waiting list already""

Has you said 50% of boats are foreign , that just my point , if they left the Marina would be 50% empty .

I not trying to make an argument , just pointing out some fact .

 

[Tony Cross]

Vic, you really do have to come and winter down here. We could waste hours in the bar outside the marina with back-and-forths like this!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Vic, you really do have to come and winter down here. We could waste hours in the bar outside the marina with back-and-forths like this!

How many years have you been hitting them bars ? Do you really want to get banned now ?
Any way I did try , I tho you would put a good word in for me , but Alas it wasn't to be .
We have Dutch and Swedish and English friend coming this winter , they wil report back to me .

 

[Tony Cross]

How many years have you been hitting them bars ? Do you really want to get banned now ?
Any way I did try , I tho you would put a good word in for me , but Alas it wasn't to be .
We have Dutch and Swedish and English friend coming this winter , they wil report back to me .

:encouragement:

 

[Seven Spades]

I don't have a problem with the Greeks charging a cruising tax - the leisure market seems a perfectly legitimate target to me for a county in the mire that it is, so long as it is fair and does not discriminate against other EU citizens. So it seems entirely right that the CA engages with the Greek government to try to shape the bill. But I fear the typical shoestring long term cruiser who has to choose between paying the tax or eating in a taverna is being optimistic if s/he thinks that they will be much of a concern to the Greek government - in the past we could spend as much on a two week flotilla/charter as some liveaboards claim to spend in a year, although we plan to join the latter next spring! Given all the froth about immigrants here not contributing, it is a bit rich to object to contributing a bit to the infrastructure that we use - actively or passively.

I do I don't see any difference between visiting a country by boat and car. If you drive across the boarder to Greece you are not asked to pay €130 towards road tax so why should boats? If Greece tried to impose such a tax on cars entering the country the EU would jump n them fro a great height, I do not see why we should accept this charge at all, movement should be free, only berthing should be chargable.`

 

[RichardS]

I do I don't see any difference between visiting a country by boat and car. If you drive across the boarder to Greece you are not asked to pay €130 towards road tax so why should boats? If Greece tried to impose such a tax on cars entering the country the EU would jump n them fro a great height, I do not see why we should accept this charge at all, movement should be free, only berthing should be chargable.`

Although if you drive across the border to France, Italy, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia etc and wish to drive on the motorway (often the only viable route) you will be have to pay towards their road tax.

Richard