New Greek "Duty" on Yachts Announced

[charles_reed]

Porto Carras, Charles ..................................!!!! I'd always thought your were a secret millionaire.

I had the wife with me requiring spoiling. It really wasn't worth it and virtually abandoned, by sailors.
However a French local government spielfest in the hotel was great fun. Amazing how they enjoy themselves @ the rate-payers expense!!!

 

[Melody]

You coming over as if your hard done by , and so you should pay taxes , you making a mint out of the charting yachts .
Once again if this tax come in we has private boats visiting a country are penalise and having to pay a tax while charter company's yacht get it at a reduce rate , and you want us to fell sorry for you , I don't think so .

In your own words . ( very small taxation burden) while an private owner of a 14 meter boat will have to pay 1400 euros to keep it in Greece .

I don't know where you get the idea that I want anyone to feel sorry for me. Maybe from the same place where you think I am making a mint? ... I wish, haha. I have nice lifestyle but I'm here for the lifestyle, not the money. I can assure you that most charter companies in Greece don't make a fortune, despite what you may think. Many of them have gone bust over the years. Don't confuse turnover with profit.

The only way I'd like anyone's sympathy is for running a business in Greece It's a nightmare that no-one could comprehend unless they had done it.

I can assure you that things are very very much tighter here than they were in the past. I'm not saying that there isn't still a black market. Of course there is but it is vastly shrunk. It's hard to pay people in cash if you can only get 420 euro a week in cash out of a bank, and businesses have the same restrictions as individuals. Most businesses will have more than one account but it's still a juggling exercise. One thing capital controls have done is to force everyone to pay their bills through bank accounts and it's now illegal to pay anything over a certain figure by cash (I think it's 100 euro). Tax officers inspect the yards in this area every winter to ensure all those working there are paying IKA and recently the PP at Kalamaki, the biggest charter marina, have been checking the tax and insurance status of everyone from cleaners to skippers.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find it isn't as strict in some other areas. The further from Athens you are the more lax things often seem to be. A majority of charter yachts, even if they are based elsewhere for the summer, come back to the mainland in the winter.

If you are spending 18K a year in Greece I can understand why you feel miffed at anyone suggesting your contribution is not significant. It certainly is but, from my experience, you are at the top of the private boat spending spectrum. I know a lot of private boat owners, both Greek and foreign. Many private boats are kept in small cheap yards, spend their nights in bays rather than marinas, do their own repairs, etc, etc. Some private boats only sail a few weeks in the year. Many of them spend way less than half what you do.

Nevertheless, no-one is arguing that private boats aren't important to the local economy. In some areas they definitely are, and I've acknowledged that. I can't really remember how this discussion started but I think it was the opposite - someone saying that charter yachts are less important to the economy, which is definitely inaccurate.

I do have some recent figures somewhere which I'll look out but, from memory just under 50% of registered pleasure yachts in Greece are charter boats. I cant recall the figures for contribution to the economy or direct employment but I'll try to find them when I have time.

What I do know is that there is now an annual conference about nautical tourism, where they try to identify how to maximise the benefit to the economy and where to concentrate development. What that has found is that the most profitable type of nautical tourism to the Greek economy is cruise ships and super yachts. Their contribution far outweighs what us raggies put in, whether charter or private boats.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Melody,

Excellent description above.

I'm still in touch with many ex-employees who now support or run charter businesses in the Ionian. Your description applies to the Ionian too.

Running charter businesses is a lifestyle choice, not a way of making big money. And, at present, running any cash business in Greece is a bureaucratic nightmare, beset with many expensive traps if you don't play by the rules.

There's strong investment in tourism and lots of Greek governmental research into what pays and what doesn't. As you point out, the conclusions are simple. It's feet on the ground, carrying full wallets, which most contributes to the Greek economy. Hence investments in superyacht berths, big Cruise Boat quays, and (locally to Messinia) luxury hotels with big inclusive activities for better off clients - golf courses, water ski-ing, mountain biking, tennis, wind and kite surfing, dinghy sailing.

That's a far cry from the per head cash you can pull from a private boat under 12m LOA.

 

[Tony Cross]

[Fence Sitting Mode ON]

18k a year is not that unusual, we almost certainly spend that if not more. Some years ago a few of us in the marina here attempted to come up with a rough monthly spend figure for the 25 or so boats that had people living on over most of the winter. Excluding the marina fees we reckoned each boat probably spent around €1000 per month locally in food, supplies, clothes, spares, tools, electricity & water, hire of workmen, car hire, bus fares, taxi fares, entry fees to sites and events, etc. etc. That is small potatoes of course, even if you multiply it by the number of winter lievaboard marinas, but it's not insignificant and for quite a few local businesses our custom in the winter is very important.

I do however still believe that the income from charterers is far in excess of that from liveaboards, even allowing for the winter months.

I also believe that the Greek government thinks that charterers will not be affected by this tax because it forms a tiny part of their costs and it will thus have no effect on the number of charterers. In addition, I'm quite sure that if the tax is introduced only a small fraction of the liveaboard boats here will actually leave, most will grumble but will stay. I reckon the Greek government believes that too.

[Fence Sitting Mode OFF}

 

[sailaboutvic]

Melody my agreement isn't with the charters businesses , although your remark of what. Bad time they are having , don't hit a note with me , each year there more and more charters popping up , the older company Seems to have more boat and there no long 30footer but 45 and 50 and May May more cat , if there having a bad time , I like to know where there money coming from or why they are increasing there fleet .

But putting that to one side my grief is with the people who seen to want to stand on their podium And scream how little if any private boats contribute to the Greek economy and how little if any different it would make if we all left , there are also the ones that brought charter company into the argument , comparing there income to ours .
There really talking out of there back side has my last posting said and Jim and you have confirm that 50 % of boats are private and that only the ones that are registered .
One of our friends is based in Corfu his mooring fee is 4500 , another Friend has an six months contact for being on the hard including haul out 2100 , another in Lefkas year contract 3900 so taken the 5 thousand private yacht Jim said there are in Greece ( unlike you and Jim I don't have any figures ) even at half the cost I just quoted that's 10000000 euros , that just mooring fees .
I lay money on the a charter company with say 10 boats will pay less for the same size boat as I and 9 other private boats would .

I Sure Tony right when he says the Greek gov don't give toss about private boat owners , I also agree a large amount of private boats won't leave Greece for two reason .
Well over half of private boats are Greek own , so where are there going to move them too if they want weekend access.

Second reason a lot of foreign boats think Greece is the only place left in The Med that safe to sail in and cheap , only because there have been brain washed and know no better .

Over a third of everyone we know who have boats over 12 mts have said they will leave Greece if the tax comes in the rest are unsure , only one said they would stay no matter what .

Has for us and the 18k we spend to be honest , it isn't all in Greece any more . Over the last four years we only been using Greece as a stepping stone , while crossing to Turkey or Croatia spending no more then four months in Greece .

After over 19 years Greece has lost a lot of what it had to offer for us . We still love the place and enjoy sailing it but not enough to pay an large tax for visiting an country .

As another podium squealer often says if you don't like it then vote with your keel ,
C your talking to the converted , no need to tell us that , we will be , it not problem for us to sail to another country without touching Greece .

 

[Resolution]

Some official numbers might help with putting our boating in perspective.
According to SETE (Association of Greek Tourism Enterprises) in 2012 tourism was a major contributor to Greek GDP, at 16.4%. International Tourism receipts (including cruise passenger receipts) were Euros 10.4 billion, from 16.9 million arrivals, of which Brits were 1.9 million. Per head spend was Euros 616.

Based on these figures sailaboutvic's 10 million euros for berthing fees is about 0.1% of tourism receipts. I don't think anyone in government is going to lose much sleep if half of the foreign boats upped and left. Of course out on the coast there would be some Greeks who would lose materially, but are they influential at government level?
Peter

 

[sailaboutvic]

Some official numbers might help with putting our boating in perspective.
According to SETE (Association of Greek Tourism Enterprises) in 2012 tourism was a major contributor to Greek GDP, at 16.4%. International Tourism receipts (including cruise passenger receipts) were Euros 10.4 billion, from 16.9 million arrivals, of which Brits were 1.9 million. Per head spend was Euros 616.

Based on these figures sailaboutvic's 10 million euros for berthing fees is about 0.1% of tourism receipts. I don't think anyone in government is going to lose much sleep if half of the foreign boats upped and left. Of course out on the coast there would be some Greeks who would lose materially, but are they influential at government level?
Peter

We now gone from comparing charter boat to private boat to cruisers passenger and tourist , give me a break ,
Althought some thing your right about , the gov won't lose any sleep if all the private boats left , until there do go and business start closing down .

 

[Chris_Robb]

We now gone from comparing charter boat to private boat to cruisers passenger and tourist , give me a break ,
Althought some thing your right about , the gov won't lose any sleep if all the private boats left , until there do go and business start closing down .

Don't worry about Resolution .... he's za banker .

 

[Resolution]

Don't worry about Resolution .... he's za banker .

Never let facts get in the way of a good theory. Thank you for your careful spelling.....

 

[STILL AFLOAT]

Unfortunately , this happens now & again, with dire results.
I was in Trinidad, when Venezuela put a cruising tax on boats, within 24 hrs; 400 boats turned up in Trinidad, & god only knows, how many went elsewhere
Then Bequia started to get clever, and everyone upped anchor & left.
Then they had to say sorry, a mistake had been made, and people could return for a refund.
I was lucky, I arrived a week before that was implemented, but as said, it was a bit late, since many terminated their entry process, & went to Grenada.
Not so long ago, Teneriffe tried the same thing.
So many boats, left Teneriffe, that the local government issued a cover up !
Sorry, our officials mixed up the rules, for Cruise Ships & the rules for Pleasure Boats.
Please come Back !
However, Unlike Bequia , Teneriffe never offered a refund.
Sic Transit Gloria Mundae

 

[Tony Cross]

Perhaps we need to adopt the attitude of the average Greek boat owner. If you ask them about this tax they will say "are they collecting it yet"? To which you will reply, "well, no". And the Greek will smile, shrug his shoulders and walk away.......

 

[Carmel2]

Just on a collection point of view, would not be sensible to charge you at the time you renew your annual Dekpa stamp............ God that was sensible! I promise I will not do that again. Beer anyone?

 

[nortada]

Actually I don't disagree with the notion that charterers bring in more revenue than liveaboards. I think I've said that already. I also don't think the Greek government would shed a single tear if all the liveaboards, or even all the privately owned and foreign registered, yachts left Greece. But that's because they have no idea who we are or how important we are to many local economies. If all the foreign flagged private yachts left a fair number of small businesses would be in trouble, not least the marina here - and more than a few tavernas and bars, especially in the winter. Does the Greek government care. Almost certainly NO.

OK off thread.

Does the Greek government care. Almost certainly NO.

Does the Portuguese government care. Almost certainly YES. About ten years ago zealous tax officials carried carried out a surprise Sunday morning check on foreign flagged vessels with a view to annual boat tax. No tax was levied and the Minister for Tourism remonstrated with the Revenue and promised it wouldn't happen again.

Back to thread.

 

[Tony Cross]

Just on a collection point of view, would not be sensible to charge you at the time you renew your annual Dekpa stamp............ God that was sensible! I promise I will not do that again. Beer anyone?

They have thought of that, it's why you now only need a DEKPA stamp every twelve months.

 

[Carmel2]

Makes sense..

 

[ostra4]

I'm just trying to imagine where my documents could end up over winter if they need to be surrendered in order to prove boat out of use , potentially thousands of extra documents in each PP office , lots more lever arch files ... Staff vanishing behind increasing piles of files meaning new offices required with more space and more PP to errr police the system , must stop this negative thought train as Im sure it will all run as planned -