New Greek "Duty" on Yachts Announced
- Thread starter Chris_Robb
- Start date
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
We can expect that irrespective.
Richard
Nothing ventured nothing gained
chrisgee
Member
Absolutely !! The best comments so far on this on going saga of life in wonderland.
Carmel2
New member
Do you live in your car?
RichardS
N/A
I thought I'd kicked that analogy into the long grass with the very next post after it was postulated.
Richard
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Yea but , car are use to transport people and so are boat ,
we not all Liveaboard . Which I am very grateful for .
What about motor home , wil they be changed by the metre ?
ostra4
Member
Ihope not as I have both here in Greece-
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
If you keep your car longer than 6 months in Greece you will be charged road tax and I believe will be required to import it and pay any duties due. Would you prefer to that?
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
I think I speak for everyone when I say , we prefer things to stay how they are , but life is , that nothing stays the same ,
Tony Cross
Well-known member
Indeed. A friend in the marina (who has now very sadly died) bought a used Rav4 in Germany for €19000 and to import it into Greece cost him a further €6000. In addition, because it was less than 5 years old, he also had to pay an additional €600 per year luxury tax. Cars are not cheap here.....
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
I would agree wholeheartedly!
Tony Cross
Well-known member
Change is inevitable. Except from a vending machine......
rotrax
Well-known member
But some countries do!
Austria and the Czech Republic charge at the border for " Autobahn Vignettes " little stickers that allow use of their motorways.
I expect other EU countries do as well.
The cost is not so significant as the one proposed here but the effect is the same.
As most borders are on short bits of motorway it is hard to avoid...............................
jimbaerselman
New member
The EU directives allow that all "Means of Transport" (MoT)which are registered in one EU country may be used within another EU country for up to 180 days without having to be "imported". MoT include boats and cars, as well as horse and cart!
"Import" means that the visiting MoT becomes subject to all local regulations - additional equipment carried, licence to drive, general circulation taxes, and any personal tax implications if you are also tax resident in the visited country (more than 182 days per 365). The MoT does not have to be re-registered if it ultimately plans to return, but does have to prove it has been listed on the register of its new home.
Now, that's the directive. If any EU country applies more rigorous conditions (equating to customs duty, or shorter periods before circulation taxes kick in) then a complaint may be laid before the EU Commission.
The degree to which directives are implemented in law, and subsequently enforced, are mostly a lot more lenient.
Cars are usually subject to a 180 day rule in law. But that's impractical to enforce between central Europe countries, though quite easy to enforce in Greece and UK. The Greek import "duty" for cars mentioned in an earlier post was subject to a succession of EU commission complaints, ruled illegal, and withdrawn. There are now punitive fines for overstaying without declaring import.
Only a few EU countries apply significant circulation taxes (not related to mooring facilities) for boats. All seem to be aware of the 180 day "holiday" period for visitors. Spain has provision in law for boats to be imported after 180 days, but only applies this to tax residents. Portugal provides for import of any EU boats staying over 180 days, but are more interested in checking that VAT has been paid by such boats.
Greece proposes a tax for all boats in its waters, irrespective of how long they've been there. If this is a tax to pay for quayside usage, this is (arguably) equivalent to paying for a motorway usage carnet, as apart from paying tolls for actual use (a more expensive way of collecting money).
Spain eventually handled this dilemma by changing their tax for registration (matriculation) into a punitive fine for not notifying import of a boat. Greece changed their car import duty into a punitive fine for not notifying import of a car.
It may be possible to argue that the Greek boat tax should not apply for the first 180 days in Greece for visiting craft. If so, that might shift tax collection from an annual tax to a quayside usage tax - inconvenient and expensive to gather - with big fines for evasion.
There's always a way . . .
"Import" means that the visiting MoT becomes subject to all local regulations - additional equipment carried, licence to drive, general circulation taxes, and any personal tax implications if you are also tax resident in the visited country (more than 182 days per 365). The MoT does not have to be re-registered if it ultimately plans to return, but does have to prove it has been listed on the register of its new home.
Now, that's the directive. If any EU country applies more rigorous conditions (equating to customs duty, or shorter periods before circulation taxes kick in) then a complaint may be laid before the EU Commission.
The degree to which directives are implemented in law, and subsequently enforced, are mostly a lot more lenient.
Cars are usually subject to a 180 day rule in law. But that's impractical to enforce between central Europe countries, though quite easy to enforce in Greece and UK. The Greek import "duty" for cars mentioned in an earlier post was subject to a succession of EU commission complaints, ruled illegal, and withdrawn. There are now punitive fines for overstaying without declaring import.
Only a few EU countries apply significant circulation taxes (not related to mooring facilities) for boats. All seem to be aware of the 180 day "holiday" period for visitors. Spain has provision in law for boats to be imported after 180 days, but only applies this to tax residents. Portugal provides for import of any EU boats staying over 180 days, but are more interested in checking that VAT has been paid by such boats.
Greece proposes a tax for all boats in its waters, irrespective of how long they've been there. If this is a tax to pay for quayside usage, this is (arguably) equivalent to paying for a motorway usage carnet, as apart from paying tolls for actual use (a more expensive way of collecting money).
Spain eventually handled this dilemma by changing their tax for registration (matriculation) into a punitive fine for not notifying import of a boat. Greece changed their car import duty into a punitive fine for not notifying import of a car.
It may be possible to argue that the Greek boat tax should not apply for the first 180 days in Greece for visiting craft. If so, that might shift tax collection from an annual tax to a quayside usage tax - inconvenient and expensive to gather - with big fines for evasion.
There's always a way . . .
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Melody
Active member
Haven't been around for a while due to bereavement but noticed this thread active again. Those who claim that live aboard or part-time live aboard sailors contribute as much to the economy as charterers are mistaken. I don't know where they get their ideas from.
I know a lot of foreign cruisers who keep their boats in Greece so I know the sort of cash they spend and I'm also involved in the charter business.
I'm not sure what the average price of a charter yacht is but let's say it's about 2500 per week (I suspect it is higher these days). Each yacht will be chartered for 20 - 30 weeks per year so that is 50K - 75K per yacht before the charterers spend any money in restaurants or supermarkets. Some of that goes directly to the government in VAT, and it all goes into the economy in one way or another.
Charter companies provide employment each week for cleaners, mechanics, skippers, and all the office staff who deal with the boats, they pay tax and insurance contributions. Over the winter months they employ all sorts of people to maintain the boats, put thousands of yachts into boatyards, and buy equipment and yachts in Greece.
I don't think many private boats come anywhere near to this. Most of them are bought abroad, the owners often work on them themselves, buy new equipment abroad, don't regularly employ skippers or cleaners or anyone else during their sailing. I can't imagine the average private yacht spends anything like 50K a year in Greece. There are lots of threads on here about how much you need to cruise and it's always far far less than that.
Private yachts can certainly be an important source of income at a local level but in terms of the overall impact on the Greek economy they are pretty insignificant, I'm afraid.
Thanks to the Brexit vote, British private yachts may face increased charges as they will no longer be EU-flagged yachts, so I'd enjoy sailing here while you can do it with the current taxation
The Greek tax on imported cars has been ruled illegal but, unfortunately, the fines are less than the income from the tax so, as far as I'm aware, it hasn't done anything to change what happens.
I know a lot of foreign cruisers who keep their boats in Greece so I know the sort of cash they spend and I'm also involved in the charter business.
I'm not sure what the average price of a charter yacht is but let's say it's about 2500 per week (I suspect it is higher these days). Each yacht will be chartered for 20 - 30 weeks per year so that is 50K - 75K per yacht before the charterers spend any money in restaurants or supermarkets. Some of that goes directly to the government in VAT, and it all goes into the economy in one way or another.
Charter companies provide employment each week for cleaners, mechanics, skippers, and all the office staff who deal with the boats, they pay tax and insurance contributions. Over the winter months they employ all sorts of people to maintain the boats, put thousands of yachts into boatyards, and buy equipment and yachts in Greece.
I don't think many private boats come anywhere near to this. Most of them are bought abroad, the owners often work on them themselves, buy new equipment abroad, don't regularly employ skippers or cleaners or anyone else during their sailing. I can't imagine the average private yacht spends anything like 50K a year in Greece. There are lots of threads on here about how much you need to cruise and it's always far far less than that.
Private yachts can certainly be an important source of income at a local level but in terms of the overall impact on the Greek economy they are pretty insignificant, I'm afraid.
Thanks to the Brexit vote, British private yachts may face increased charges as they will no longer be EU-flagged yachts, so I'd enjoy sailing here while you can do it with the current taxation
The Greek tax on imported cars has been ruled illegal but, unfortunately, the fines are less than the income from the tax so, as far as I'm aware, it hasn't done anything to change what happens.
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sailaboutvic
Well-known member
just one min Melody You got me jumping off the cockpit seats .
Yes charter company pay taxes and so they should , after all they are running a business and making millions out of Greece .
yes they employ people but only a very small amount are local .
most of the big charter company's are employing people from out side Greece ,
and paying taxes to there home country .
I not see a sun sail or nelson or sailing holiday or sunny holiday or most of the other company employing local other then cleaners on very low income .
Once again they don't have their boats repair or serviced by local , their own people do it ,
So you want to compare charter yacht to private , ok let's do it
1000 charters 1000 private .
A good percentage of private yacht have to pay to get there boat repair by local yard , so money going in to local pocket ,
charter company have there own people do it so none going into local economy .
If a private boat rips a sail or blow his engine again he has to employ a local company to do the work so money goes into the local economy .
Charter company have there own people nothing goes into the local economy .
When a private boat need to use an Marina or be hauled out , they pays full prices and charter company get a very different rate .
DIY yachtsmen buy any thing ie parts his paying RRP the charter company get it at a discount , that if they having brought is the parts back from there home country like many do .
The only big different I can see is a private yacht is here on holiday and paying large amount of his own money into the local Economy ,
The charter company are making big buck chartering yacht and paying country taxes , one has to wonder how much they really do pay and how much are hidden , common pratise in big business.
Has you said some charter pay well over 2000 euros a week and putting in very little into the local Economy .
That not count the really damage they are doing to the local environment
leaving bays in a mess , Dumping rubbish on beaches and the noise pollution .
Add to that the damage done to private boat by people or should no way be handling boat of 40 plus feet , off cause the charter company don't give a dam , they got a nice big deposit to hang on too .
You may have been in Greece for some years , I can assure you I have a lot longer , and I seen the damage so called charter company have done to Greece , taken over public quay . Making places look like a dump , just need to take a look at Nirdi , old inflatable , bits of engine parts, empty fuel contains . Is this what you call good for the local community .
Sorry Melody but business should clear up their mess they made of Greece before commenting on private boat owners , it the private boat owner who pick up the rubbish and the mess charters leave behind when they go home after there week holiday , while the charter company's count there millions .
If there should be a tax it should be aimed at the charter business to put back something into Greece not the cruiser or boats just passing by , who just enjoying some weeks or months visiting Greece .
The only added different that come from charters company , is the charters them self where income is spend locally but that's no different then private crew , we all got to spend money on food .
Yes charter company pay taxes and so they should , after all they are running a business and making millions out of Greece .
yes they employ people but only a very small amount are local .
most of the big charter company's are employing people from out side Greece ,
and paying taxes to there home country .
I not see a sun sail or nelson or sailing holiday or sunny holiday or most of the other company employing local other then cleaners on very low income .
Once again they don't have their boats repair or serviced by local , their own people do it ,
So you want to compare charter yacht to private , ok let's do it
1000 charters 1000 private .
A good percentage of private yacht have to pay to get there boat repair by local yard , so money going in to local pocket ,
charter company have there own people do it so none going into local economy .
If a private boat rips a sail or blow his engine again he has to employ a local company to do the work so money goes into the local economy .
Charter company have there own people nothing goes into the local economy .
When a private boat need to use an Marina or be hauled out , they pays full prices and charter company get a very different rate .
DIY yachtsmen buy any thing ie parts his paying RRP the charter company get it at a discount , that if they having brought is the parts back from there home country like many do .
The only big different I can see is a private yacht is here on holiday and paying large amount of his own money into the local Economy ,
The charter company are making big buck chartering yacht and paying country taxes , one has to wonder how much they really do pay and how much are hidden , common pratise in big business.
Has you said some charter pay well over 2000 euros a week and putting in very little into the local Economy .
That not count the really damage they are doing to the local environment
leaving bays in a mess , Dumping rubbish on beaches and the noise pollution .
Add to that the damage done to private boat by people or should no way be handling boat of 40 plus feet , off cause the charter company don't give a dam , they got a nice big deposit to hang on too .
You may have been in Greece for some years , I can assure you I have a lot longer , and I seen the damage so called charter company have done to Greece , taken over public quay . Making places look like a dump , just need to take a look at Nirdi , old inflatable , bits of engine parts, empty fuel contains . Is this what you call good for the local community .
Sorry Melody but business should clear up their mess they made of Greece before commenting on private boat owners , it the private boat owner who pick up the rubbish and the mess charters leave behind when they go home after there week holiday , while the charter company's count there millions .
If there should be a tax it should be aimed at the charter business to put back something into Greece not the cruiser or boats just passing by , who just enjoying some weeks or months visiting Greece .
The only added different that come from charters company , is the charters them self where income is spend locally but that's no different then private crew , we all got to spend money on food .
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Tony Cross
Well-known member
We spent several weeks in Sivota (Lefkas) in 2014. Sailing Holidays run five flotillas out of there. The cleaners were mostly liveaboards who moored in Sivota at the weekends and were paid €50 each to clean 4 boats (I think it was 4 boats). They didn't pay any tax on that of course it was drinking money. I have no idea what the flot leaders and crews were paid but judging by the way they lived it wasn't very much. I do know they almost never pay for meals, the tavernas feed them for free for taking the flot there. I'm sure their pay reflects this.
That said I do agree with Melody that the overall income from charterers is probably much more than from liveaboards. For one thing, there are more of them than us and they eat out almost every night - they seem to drink a lot more than we do too! However, one has to factor in the winter when charterers contribute nothing yet the liveaboards are still here helping to support whatever local community is outside their winter marina.
That said I do agree with Melody that the overall income from charterers is probably much more than from liveaboards. For one thing, there are more of them than us and they eat out almost every night - they seem to drink a lot more than we do too! However, one has to factor in the winter when charterers contribute nothing yet the liveaboards are still here helping to support whatever local community is outside their winter marina.
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sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Hi Tony
We keep going back to this word Liveaboard . You and I maybe , but there thousand of private boat owners who are not .
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jimbaerselman
New member
Lets ensure facts don't get in the way of emotion.
One average charter yacht over a year is occupied by 4 people for 150 days - 600 people-days.
Their average spend on food and local services is €100 per day.
That's €60,000 per boat over a year coming into the local economy - just from people's local expenditure on food, drink, mementos, nightlife.
Makes a live-aboard budget per boat rather a tame affair.
I've ignored the cost of getting people from airport to boat and back, typically €1,000 per boat load per year. And the cost of local airport turn-arounds. And I quite expect the local per boat yacht support costs to be similar. More wear and tear for charter, made up for by bulk discounts.
One average charter yacht over a year is occupied by 4 people for 150 days - 600 people-days.
Their average spend on food and local services is €100 per day.
That's €60,000 per boat over a year coming into the local economy - just from people's local expenditure on food, drink, mementos, nightlife.
Makes a live-aboard budget per boat rather a tame affair.
I've ignored the cost of getting people from airport to boat and back, typically €1,000 per boat load per year. And the cost of local airport turn-arounds. And I quite expect the local per boat yacht support costs to be similar. More wear and tear for charter, made up for by bulk discounts.
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Tranona
Well-known member
Interesting on the one hand Vic argues that liveaboards/private yachts contribute more to the local economy, but at other times liveaboards enjoy telling how little money they live on, with 15000 euros a year as a benchmark!
BTW Jim, your figures were only on spending money for visitors. Don't forget the 2000+ euros net income from a week's charter on the boat, so another 40k a year adding up to 100k.
So 8 liveaboards to equal one charter boat!
BTW Jim, your figures were only on spending money for visitors. Don't forget the 2000+ euros net income from a week's charter on the boat, so another 40k a year adding up to 100k.
So 8 liveaboards to equal one charter boat!