New Greek "Duty" on Yachts Announced

[dslittle]

I am watching this thread with interest as we did intend to return to Greece in the future. We had six happy seasons on our first yacht which was <10m. Now we have a >12m so the impact on us will be larger. We sailed in Greece because we love Greece - the people, the scenery, the climate AND the cost... We were not on a strict budget and we enjoyed drinking and eating out at Tavernas. We paid the PP when they 'caught' us.

I understand the reasons why Greece is trying to recoup some money and, after the cheap holidays that we have had there in the past, I would not be adverse to contributing to their 'recovery' BUT I will carefully access how much it will cost me for how long. As it stands we will need €140pm (THREE nights mooring fees in the Solent) before spending anything else which I would factor into my costs. Many cruisers are in a Greek waters as it is MUCH cheaper than the Western Med. I have no doubt that should Italy become cheaper than Greece they would be a mass migration there - the beauty of sailing is the ability to move on for whatever reason...

I am not a member of the CA as my current cruising does not make it valuable enough for me but as we travel further I shall join. That bringing said, I do realise that the CA appear to be acting in my interests even as a non- member. I would not have the audacity to question the machinations of a Club of which I am not a member. If I thought they were acting against my interest, I would join and then complain as a member.

Without getting into others' individual circumstances, Vic did mention earlier the difference between long term liveaboards and charterers. If, for example, a liveaboard boat was spending €1600 a month, a charter boat would (in my experience) be spending €8000 a month including charter hire and eating/drinking/partying. Obviously very few charter for a month at a time but the figures would correlate pro rata. Accepting that liveaboards are there much longer, if not all year, it only takes basic maths to work out that €19200 pa doesn't take long to recoup from the charter market. There are a lot more charters than liveaboards over a season of five/six months. Additionally, many Tavernas close in the off season and have minimal, if any, running costs as they (as every UK seaside town in history) rely upon the summer trade.

I don't think that the Greek Government are going to worry too much about a few hundred liveaboards taking their €19200 pa out of the Country.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

"whinge complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way."

Are you noy complaining about the Greek government imposing the Tax?
Are you not complaining about the CA engaging with the Governement (even though I don't believe you're a member?
Are you not complaining about the CA presuming to represent your views?

What the hell are you doing except whingeing?

Whoosh !!!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Dslittle .
I have to agree with you a few hundred Liveaboard is neither here or there itr the other Thousands of private boats there really need to worry about . .
Example ...
Here a yacht with an < 12 boat who has cruised in Greece for some years . Plainning to spend three months , so do here stay in Greece which he had been in for years and pay the 120euros or move of to new grounds Turkey and pay 100 euros or Croatia where the cost 140 euro for 3 months , I think I know very well what I do , as it happen I am about to do it in a very weeks .
Now before some one pipes us with crap about anchoring fees please don't . Because I am living prove most of what read is rubbish Croatia ,
Any way the days have gone where you could go on town walls in Greece for free and what is worst is , now you just don't know who your paying , now some guy turns up give you a shop recipt only to find out a little later you paid some guy to take your ropes . We now have some of the little fishing harbour being turn into mini Marina ,
Charging what ever they like .
Rtboss1
I think your being unfair regarding the CA , if you really want to complain then it's the RYA you should be doing it to . You have to remember the CA is small cruiseing club not much different then RCC or LCC , if they manage to get anything out of it , it can only befit all of us .

 

[Seven Spades]

Seems the thin end of the wedge to me, what if all countries applied this tax, it would be the end of cruising you could rake up so many charges by moving around. If they want to raise money they should make a levy on berthing that way you only pay fr what you use and if you anchor you don't pay.

 

[stranded]

Seems the thin end of the wedge to me, what if all countries applied this tax, it would be the end of cruising you could rake up so many charges by moving around. If they want to raise money they should make a levy on berthing that way you only pay fr what you use and if you anchor you don't pay.

If you live in a country, including on a yacht, whether in a berth or at anchor, you benefit from its services. From the armed forces that defend the country, the police who maintain law and order, the education system that qualifies the people who work on your boat, or, particularly relevant for many Brits in particular, can speak English so you communicate your needs. The roads, the streetlights, the refuse collection, sewage systems, marine conservation. The coastguard, the fire service, the health inspectors that stop you getting the lurgy every time you eat in a restaurant. Clean water, fuel that is of sufficient quality for your engine.............. The idea that people should only contribute to what they directly consume is nonsense!

 

[Seven Spades]

If you are a permeant resident you would be in a marina and money could be levied that way. But I don't see that someone passing through or staying a few days should face these horrendous charges. A €5 per night berthing charge for marinas is a far better way to collect the money because you are only charged for the time spent in the country.

 

[sailaboutvic]

If you live in a country, including on a yacht, whether in a berth or at anchor, you benefit from its services. From the armed forces that defend the country, the police who maintain law and order, the education system that qualifies the people who work on your boat, or, particularly relevant for many Brits in particular, can speak English so you communicate your needs. The roads, the streetlights, the refuse collection, sewage systems, marine conservation. The coastguard, the fire service, the health inspectors that stop you getting the lurgy every time you eat in a restaurant. Clean water, fuel that is of sufficient quality for your engine.............. The idea that people should only contribute to what they directly consume is nonsense!

Once again you talking about people living in an country , ok maybe we keep coming back to this because it's a Liveaboard forum , but has I said I think three time now us Liveaboard are a very small number to the amount of private boats in Greece , I agree with seven spade what should happen here is an tax put on mooring fees and Marina fees just like they do in Hollands , if you stay in an hotel or camp site or a Marina you pay an tourist tax per night .
I think in time no matter what any of us say here if and its an if this tax come in Greece will see yacht leaving maybe not on an mass exit but enough to hurt the locals and business that relie on it .
Over the last three years we use Greece as a stepping stone why crossing over to Turkey or Croatia and this year we be doing the same , I could quite easy hit Turkey or Croatia in one go from Sicily if I have to .
So the 1300 euros we spend in Greece so far would had been lost to another country .
Going back to the sum they are asking boats to paid , if it turns out to be 40 euros a month paid monthly for each month the boat is in Greece For <12 boat that make is a bit more easy to to swallow but what they trying to charge 12> the Italian for one will be going else where and there are a big income to Greece if any one spends money eating out its them .
We notice Greece be quieter and less boats about for the last few years , and it's being reported so far this year it been the same maybe people are already find else where to go .

 

[Mr Cassandra]

If you live in a country, including on a yacht, whether in a berth or at anchor, you benefit from its services. From the armed forces that defend the country, the police who maintain law and order, the education system that qualifies the people who work on your boat, or, particularly relevant for many Brits in particular, can speak English so you communicate your needs. The roads, the streetlights, the refuse collection, sewage systems, marine conservation. The coastguard, the fire service, the health inspectors that stop you getting the lurgy every time you eat in a restaurant. Clean water, fuel that is of sufficient quality for your engine.............. The idea that people should only contribute to what they directly consume is nonsense!

Have you spent any time living/ cruising in Greece as the picture you describe is not the one I see here and another thing there is a now standard VAT of 23-25% on everything

 

[Tony Cross]

I absolutely agree with all those who have said that the number of full-time (or even long-term) liveaboards in Greek waters is small. I also believe it's true that the Greek government would care little if they all left (though many marinas that cater for long-term liveaboards - like mine - would care). But just because there are only a small number of us is no reason not to make our voices heard.

I think we're all overlooking the real target of this tax - Greek owned boats. There are an awful lot of those, and most of them can't leave. That's where the significant opposition to these taxes has come from in the past and I'm pretty sure that's where it will come from with this one.

That said, even if the CA represented only one liveaboard boat in Greece, it's still right that the CA consult with the Greek government on the impact this tax would have on their member. My approach (and I do not set CA policy on this or anything else) would be to engage with the Greeks until it became clear they were not going to listen, then I would oppose it outright.

We've been here before. Even if this is passed into law (all the other attempts at a tax of this type were also passed into law) it does not mean that this tax will actually be collected. This is Greece......

 

[stranded]

Have you spent any time living/ cruising in Greece as the picture you describe is not the one I see here and another thing there is a now standard VAT of 23-25% on everything

Only on sailing holidays, but yes. And I have spent much of my working life dealing with the most troubled parts of the world. And I can say with confidence that for all the shortcomings of the Greek systems, they still deliver a holiday/liveaboards experience that is very much better than it would be if they were not there. Ishould have thought that anyone with as low opinion of a country as you seem to have of Greece would want to be somewhere else, cruising tax or no?

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Ishould have thought that anyone with as low opinion of a country as you seem to have of Greece would want to be somewhere else, cruising tax or no?
're

What an odd comment from someone that has not lived here The chaos is the appealing part of living out here .If you ever have the opportunity to spending some time out here i think you will remember this conversation.


best regards bob

 

[charles_reed]

Once again you talking about people living in an country , ok maybe we keep coming back to this because it's a Liveaboard forum , but has I said I think three time now us Liveaboard are a very small number to the amount of private boats in Greece , I agree with seven spade what should happen here is an tax put on mooring fees and Marina fees just like they do in Hollands , if you stay in an hotel or camp site or a Marina you pay an tourist tax per night .
I think in time no matter what any of us say here if and its an if this tax come in Greece will see yacht leaving maybe not on an mass exit but enough to hurt the locals and business that relie on it .
Over the last three years we use Greece as a stepping stone why crossing over to Turkey or Croatia and this year we be doing the same , I could quite easy hit Turkey or Croatia in one go from Sicily if I have to .
So the 1300 euros we spend in Greece so far would had been lost to another country .
Going back to the sum they are asking boats to paid , if it turns out to be 40 euros a month paid monthly for each month the boat is in Greece For <12 boat that make is a bit more easy to to swallow but what they trying to charge 12> the Italian for one will be going else where and there are a big income to Greece if any one spends money eating out its them .
We notice Greece be quieter and less boats about for the last few years , and it's being reported so far this year it been the same maybe people are already find else where to go .

A coherent point, Vic, but the loss of your transit moneys, is as nothing compared to the cash to be collected from native Greeks using flags of convenience.
In your sample situation the Greek government will be benefitting at the expense of Greek taverna owners.

I only occasionally use town quays or marinas, preferring to anchor.
One fact, few appear to have considered is that the DEKRA cruising charge will be totally separate from local demos' charges, so there will be a cumulative effect - cruising taxes, plus marina charges.
Soon it will be nearly as expensive to sail in warm Greek waters as in more chilly northern climes.

In practice, this habit is spreading, as governments, in Europe and round the world try to collect cash from cruising sailors. We'll either have to budget for these taxes or (as bobt is considering) give up cruising.

 

[OldBawley]

I wonder how much the state will collect from the Greek owners of big gin palaces.
I doubt there will be any policing for those big boat – influential owners and I have the impression that Greeks don't pay if they are not forced.
Not sure about Greece but I know for sure that in Turkey a CG officer “harassing” the kaptan or owner of a big super can be sure to loose his job.
Just as an aside, I know of a town quay where Greek residents don't pay to have their boat tied to the quay ( on the safe places ) all year. Tourists have to pay. I understand that. It was their father and grandfather that build that quay. Not for money but for the community.

 

[Davy_S]

Just as an aside, I know of a town quay where Greek residents don't pay to have their boat tied to the quay ( on the safe places ) all year. Tourists have to pay. I understand that. It was their father and grandfather that build that quay. Not for money but for the community.

I will give you another example, a Greek owner has a 45ft motor sailor, he claims that he is a tourist boat, although he never takes out tourists! he pays an absolute pittance for mooring, he moors alongside and puts his dinghy on the other side to prevent anyone from rafting up, anyone who has visited Agia Efimia, Kefalonia, will have seen this vessel (its a Blue hull) I also doubt anyone will touch the gin palace Greeks, when they arrive everyone jumps about touching their forelocks, nothing is too much trouble, they are treated like Gods! money talks!

 

[De.windhoos]

The new “duty” is imposed on all private pleasure and commercial boats irrespective of their flag whichare within the Greek territorial waters. Idle boats are exempted provided that the documents have been surrendered to the port police office.

What is considered to be an "idle boat" and what documents?

 

[Chris_Robb]

What is considered to be an "idle boat" and what documents?

There are so many unknowns and unacceptable requirements that if it is to be fair and work, they need to start again. WOuld you deposit your documents (undefined) but presumed to be your registration documents with the Port Police - not in a hundred years. They have no filling systems......

There have to be very substantial changes if this is to get our support.

The question is: Is there anyone listening? we will see in the next couple of days I hope.

 

[sailaboutvic]

There have to be very substantial changes if this is to get our support.

The question is: Is there anyone listening? we will see in the next couple of days I hope.

Greece being Greece , they just going to do what every they want , no matter what the EU , CA , STW or any one else says , you just got to take a look around , people still smoke in restaurants , motor bike rides with out helmets , plastic bags given out be the thousand , whole family including the dog on one Scottor .to day we sew a police man have an conversation on the moblie behind the. car wheel . ( what's new )
Two things will stop the tax ,
1 if they can't be bothered to collect it .
2 mass exit of boat leaving ,

 

[RichardS]

Greece being Greece , they just going to do what every they want , no matter what the EU , CA , STW or any one else says , you just got to take a look around , people still smoke in restaurants , motor bike rides with out helmets , plastic bags given out be the thousand , whole family including the dog on one Scottor .to day we sew a police man have an conversation on the moblie behind the. car wheel . ( what's new )
Two things will stop the tax ,
1 if they can't be bothered to collect it .
2 mass exit of boat leaving ,

Spot on Vic. It's the Mediterranean, it's a different world to Northern Europe. I need someone to remind me why we are all in the "Common Market" when there's nothing "common" about it.

Richard

 

[wwalsh]

There is also difference in what Athens demands and how it is implemented elsewhere in Greece

 

[Tony Cross]

Two things will stop the tax ,
1 if they can't be bothered to collect it .
2 mass exit of boat leaving ,

I'm not sure I'd agree with you there. I think the main influence that has prevented all previous attempts to collect a 'cruising tax' (all of which were passed into law) has been the Greek boat owners themselves. All these taxes are aimed at them, we foreigners are just caught up in the crossfire, and I'm pretty sure that, once again, it's the Greeks that will kill this tax (if it is to be killed) and not us.

I don't actually think the Greek government will care one jot if all the foreign registered boats left Greece. The charter boats would still be here of course and they generate a pretty sizeable income. It would be some marinas and related businesses that would feel the most pain if all the foreign flagged boats left.