New Boat - all to get underwater lights!

[BartW]

Agreed, I never suggested that.
It's also true that such "reversed" Y connector is not available anywhere, and I had to make it myself, in my Croatian days.
Otoh, I never made any damage with such lethal equipment...
...and never had to switch on the generator and annoy the neighbours next door
Actually, coming to think of it, once I even borrowed the lethal thing (I like that definition!) to a neighbour who seemed unable to live without A/C, in a day when I wouldn't have even thought of turning it on - hence I wasn't using it.

a few weeks back I noticed that my shipper Alf wanted to make such a lethal thing, and I asked him, are you sure the blue sockets are all on one phase ?
then I saw a big questionmark on his face, and he answered;
"I have seen other doing this in marina's"

now I know who these other are

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Getting back to your question, afaik there is no device on the market which can combine 2 x 16A supplies to feed 32A into a single AC circuit in a way that is "proofed" agianst the possiblitly that the two shorepower supplies are phased 120deg apart. If anyone knows of one, I'm very happy to be corrected. If you are sparky-knowledgeable and KNOW the two shorepower supplies are running off the same phase (look inside the box to see how it is wired, or measure the voltage across the two lives) than you can with caution use the Mapis device.

So getting back to what admillington thinks he's got, it doesn't look like he's got a system for combining 2 shorepower supplies together?

As BartW said, you can get soft start devices to eliminate the start up spike on your single phase a/c motors, and better still variable frequency drives that run 3-phase a/c motors off single phase supply. These are common on bigger a/c installs and are standard gear on 70 footers+ approx

Excuse my ignorance on this but is a soft start device something that I can buy off the shelf and retrofit? It really would make a difference to my boating to be able to run my a/c off a 16A supply

 

[BartW]

All agreed, but you and Bart are not considering what Mike said:
The problem for me in Croatia is that 16A supplies are the norm and 32A is the exception, at least on the berths we get allocated.
Which pretty much fits what I recall of Croatian marinas.

two separate 16A supply lines is a perfect solution for Deleted User,
(one dedicated for A/C)

 

[MapisM]

"I have seen other doing this in marina's"
now I know who these other are

Oi, don't mix the Sacred with the Profane.
I didn't copy the lethal bit from anyone, but invented it myself!

 

[MapisM]

two separate 16A supply lines is a perfect solution for Deleted User, (one dedicated for A/C)

Agreed, but that depends on how the electrical connections are arranged inside his boat, and he might have to change something.
Besides, it is perfectly possible that all his A/C equipment requires say 18 or 20 Amps. If so, WNS?
Aside from using lethal equipments, that is!

 

[BartW]

So getting back to what admillington thinks he's got, it doesn't look like he's got a system for combining 2 shorepower supplies together?

yes he does,
I have just called Victron for some more info,
they do the junction behind the transformers, its a extra safety,
and they have a automatic detection if the two supply's are on the same phase, only then they switch the junction relay.
Fairline does this together with the UK Victron distributor "Energy Solutions"
they might be able to supply you such a system

Excuse my ignorance on this but is a soft start device something that I can buy off the shelf and retrofit? It really would make a difference to my boating to be able to run my a/c off a 16A supply

I don't believe that a soft start would cure your problem,
my solution remains a extra 16A supply directly to the A/C

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

yes he does,
I have just called Victron for some more info,
they do the junction behind the transformers, its a extra safety,
and they have a automatic detection if the two supply's are on the same phase, only then they switch the junction relay.
Fairline does this together with the UK Victron distributor "Energy Solutions"
they might be able to supply you such a system

Thats v interesting

I don't believe that a soft start would cure your problem,
my solution remains a extra 16A supply directly to the A/C

I still don't see how that cures my problem. I already run my single shorepower supply with only the a/c circuit connected and without any other circuits connected and I'm blowing the shorepower. How will a separate supply for the a/c make a difference? Its effectively the same as what I'm doing now

 

[MapisM]

I already run my single shorepower supply with only the a/c circuit connected and without any other circuits connected and I'm blowing the shorepower.

Bingo. This means that the A/C alone draws more than 16A - Q.E.D.
Trust me, go ahead with the lethal kit.
Just don't tell that to Bart or jfm, or any other S&H minded folk, and you'll be fine...

PS: coming to think of it, I could even send you mine, if you wish.
I've not used it anymore since I left Croatia, and I'm not planning to return for the moment.
But not before the end of May, 'cause I won't be onboard till then.

 

[jfm]

yes he does,
Fairline does this together with the UK Victron distributor "Energy Solutions"
they might be able to supply you such a system

Yes, makes sense, ES is a big supplier to Fairline http://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/index.php

 

[jfm]

Bingo. This means that the A/C alone draws more than 16A - Q.E.D.
Trust me, go ahead with the lethal kit.Just don't tell that to Bart or jfm, or any other S&H minded folk, and you'll be fine...

Yup, if so, the soft start etc wont help. I agree, the lethal bit of kit (LBOK) is fine, prob 99% of the time, until

(i) you fnd that marina where 2 adjacent shorepower sockets are not on the same phase. Or
(ii) that time where there is only one free dock 230v socket, and another free socket on the next electricity box along the quay, so someone takes the spare shorepower extension lead and connects/extends one "branch" of the LBOK to the next socket along, and you have 380v

Mapis that I said the LBOK is ok in the right hands, someone who knows how to tell if the phases are matched. Not everyone does. Touching 380v versus 230v can be the difference between a shock that makes you jump and death. Really this LBOK should not be talked about lightly. It must only be used by folks who know about 3 phase. I'm not normally a "don't run with scissors" kinda guy but I'm making an exception here and firmly disagreeing with your "it'll be ok" attitude.

 

[admillington]

Thats v interesting


I still don't see how that cures my problem. I already run my single shorepower supply with only the a/c circuit connected and without any other circuits connected and I'm blowing the shorepower. How will a separate supply for the a/c make a difference? Its effectively the same as what I'm doing now

Have found out - http://www.es-store.co.uk/es-dockpower/dp2x075.html

They fit the newer version of the above.

 

[MapisM]

Really this LBOK should not be talked about lightly. It must only be used by folks who know about 3 phase. I'm not normally a "don't run with scissors" kinda guy but I'm making an exception here and firmly disagreeing with your "it'll be ok" attitude.

Yeah, I see what you mean of course.
But I'm not trying to sell it as snake oil or something.
I'm just suggesting that it would be the easiest solution to Mike's problem, and even if he's not an electrician, I'm sure he would understand the LBOK (now, that's lovely! ) implications/cautions.
In spite of what his swmbo thinks...!

 

[BartW]

I still don't see how that cures my problem. I already run my single shorepower supply with only the a/c circuit connected and without any other circuits connected and I'm blowing the shorepower. How will a separate supply for the a/c make a difference? Its effectively the same as what I'm doing now

are you really sure that ONLY the A/C was switched on ?
in your post above I could read: "after a while"
or "gradually switching on more appliances"
it is very likely that you had other users switched on, like a battery charger fe, ... correct me if I'm wrong.

I would at least test the airco unit with a competely seperate 16a supply directly connected to the unit.

In your case, I would strongly disagree with MapisM statement in his last post

 

[jfm]

Have found out - http://www.es-store.co.uk/es-dockpower/dp2x075.html

They fit the newer version of the above.

Ah, thanks. That answers the question. Nice device, becuase it does the galvanic isol too, all in one unit. Perfect answer to Deleted User problem

2 observations on it are (a) it is max 2x63A and would be nice if they eventually do a 2x100, and (b) it's a brilliant device if you have one genset becuase it simplifies the 230v bus architecture ont he boat but you still need the dual 230v bus wiring architecture on the boat if you have 2x gensets, but I guess that's no big deal and you just do it

 

[MapisM]

In your case, I would strongly disagree with MapisM statement in his last post

LOL, I'm not sure Mike will be happy to hear that you agree with his wife thinking...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Have found out - http://www.es-store.co.uk/es-dockpower/dp2x075.html

They fit the newer veriosn of the above.

Just called Energy Solutions myself and yes you're right, the DockPower system is capable of combining 2 shorepower supplies but this is a pricey bit of kit; they mentioned about £4k? But they have another interesting product which might help me
http://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/victron_multiplus.html
This is basically a combined battery charger/inverter which can boost an incoming shorepower supply by taking current from the battery bank when it senses that the shorepower supply is insufficient to drive the load that the boat's AC circuit demands. So if my boat's aircon start up demand is higher than what the shorepower supply is giving, then the inverter boosts the supply with current from the batteries. Obviously this should be for short periods only otherwise the batteries will be quickly discharged and Energy Solutions recommend fitting a battery monitor as well. There is also a battery voltage detector on the Multiplus which will shut down the inverter if it senses that the battery voltage has dropped below a preset level. More good news is that there is an ex Victron guy based near Split in Croatia who can advise me on this installation as obviously its going to depend on my actual aircon start up and running current demands

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

are you really sure that ONLY the A/C was switched on ?

Absolutely positive. I'm now paranoid about tripping shorepower supplies so I'm very careful about how I connect up

 

[jfm]

Just called Energy Solutions myself and yes you're right, the DockPower system is capable of combining 2 shorepower supplies but this is a pricey bit of kit; they mentioned about £4k? But they have another interesting product which might help me
http://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/victron_multiplus.html
This is basically a combined battery charger/inverter which can boost an incoming shorepower supply by taking current from the battery bank when it senses that the shorepower supply is insufficient to drive the load that the boat's AC circuit demands. So if my boat's aircon start up demand is higher than what the shorepower supply is giving, then the inverter boosts the supply with current from the batteries. Obviously this should be for short periods only otherwise the batteries will be quickly discharged and Energy Solutions recommend fitting a battery monitor as well. There is also a battery voltage detector on the Multiplus which will shut down the inverter if it senses that the battery voltage has dropped below a preset level. More good news is that there is an ex Victron guy based near Split in Croatia who can advise me on this installation as obviously its going to depend on my actual aircon start up and running current demands

Yup, but we established above that your problem is running curent not just stsrt up spike. If say the dock supply is 4amps short of the running current you need then this victron device will draw 40amps from your batteries to the inverter, which is unsustainable except maybe for an hour. Not sustianable for overnight aircon. The combiner gizmo is what you want because you can just plug into two shore supplies. Or better still fit both devices

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yup, but we established above that your problem is running curent not just stsrt up spike.

Did we? I don't think we did. All I know is that I'm blowing 16A shorepower supplies with my aircon. In fact BartW seems to reckon that I can't be using 16A when the system is running in a stable condition and this was sort of confirmed by the Energy Solutions guy who reckons it is more than likely to be a start up problem. Anyway, I'm not going to buy anything until I've checked the start up and running loads of my aircon system with the manufacturer or other expert. If the running load is less than 16A, then the Multiplus seems like a good solution to me

 

[MapisM]

until I've checked the start up and running loads of my aircon system with the manufacturer or other expert.

I can't believe that you don't have an AC ammeter in your electrical panel.
And if you do, just keep an eye on it while starting the A/C, and subsequently when stabilised, and you'll know EXACTLY all you need to know, without asking anyone who could only tell you the nominal values.