Moving to/from the dark side - yacht choice

[Greg2]

Thought I would start a new thread to update where we are now following my last one asking about yacht size.

Well, our trip to the south coast combined with online research (including helpful comments on here) has brought us to the point where we are thinking of two competing options. One is an Island Packet 370 or similar and the others is something like a Jeanneau 42 or 43 DS.

Very different boats I know and a key factor is cost. The IP tends to have asking prices that are higher than the larger Jeanneau but then the build quality is in an entirely different league.

The attraction of the IP is a very solid and capable sea boat with very comfortable accommodation, loads of storage space, high tank capacities and crucially for us a relatively shallow draft. The latter will work well in East Coast waters and gives the option of doing the canals to the Med or, alternatively, if our sailing experience gets us to the point where we are up for the challenge then going round the outside via Biscay. Build quality is excellent and it is a boat that will last and if experience to date is anything to go by re-sale values tend to hold up, albeit in more of a niche market. Understand and accept that sailing performance upwind and in light airs may not be what many would prefer but boating is all about compromises.

In contrast, for a bit less money the larger Jeanneau provides more in the way of spacious accommodation (two heads and a larger cockpit for example) and sailing performance upwind and in light airs will be noticably better, as will close quarters manouvreing. Storage and tankage not quite so good as the smaller IP and quality of fit out is nothing like the IP but it is perfectly adequate and fit for purpose. Residual values? Not quite so sure - not too bad at the moment it would appear but how that will pan out over time with an AWB is yet to be seen. Draught is more of an issue on these boats - most are at the 2m mark and whilst shoal draught were an option not sure how common they are.

I haven’t mentioned the keel issue and bolts etc - in reality not a deal breaker but there is something comforting about a more robust set-up underwater.

Have spoken with Rotrax and gone onto an IP owners site but would appreciate views/thoughts, particularly from people who have had both an AWB and an IP or sailed/cruised in both.

All thoughts / contributions will be appreciated.

 

[Greg2]

Bump

Unusually quiet
No one got any thoughts/comments?

 

[RupertW]

I'm guessing awb owners are mildly insulted by your description of their beloved boats and IP owners by being told they are sailing well made sheds and nobody is allowed to comment anyway as nobody has owned both.

Now if you asked owners what they liked and disliked about the single choice they had made....

 

[Tranona]

I can understand the attraction of the IP, although ignoring the draft issue (a bit anyway) if you are attracted by the premium quality aspect of the boat then there are other makes that you might consider that do not have the performance issues and, perhaps more importantly are more readily available in Europe. The IP is a very niche market boat, even in the US and very few have been imported into Europe in recent years so the choice is limited and the price high (reflecting the initial high cost and scarcity).

Many people go through the process you are going through (including myself) - attracted by both "quality" boats and mass production that are available in the same price range. The issues to me are firstly the former will be older, smaller and probably needing more extra expenditure either on purchase or within a couple of years while the latter will be younger, have more space, probably more "goodies" and potentially require less extra expenditure, at least in the short to medium term. In reality both will meet your functional requirements and the structural things that you might worry about are really not the problem you think they might be.

As suggested above, doubt you will find anybody who has owned both types - most people make a choice one way or another. You will find many who have owned both older style boats and AWBs and suspect you will find both nostalgia for earlier boats and satisfaction with newer boats from the same person. For me the choice of an AWB was driven by value - that is I could not see the extra value of the premium for the higher level of construction and finish and would rather have benefits of a newer boat and not have to worry about the potentially higher future costs of keeping an older (and usually more complex) boat in good condition.

Perhaps the only unresolved issue is that of draft. While it is nice to think you can access some places with less draft, suspect with the size of boat you are looking at you may well find it is something you would not do frequently unless you have specific plans to use the French canals. As I mentioned before I chose shallow draft on my first Bavaria because doing the canals was in the plan (although for various reasons did not happen). I also chose the shorter keel on my new one, although 1.5m is hardly shallow for a 33' because I intend making use of the shallow channels in the harbour. However, even in Poole I am unusual. My boat is out of the water at the moment and stands out as the only shallow keel AWB in a row of about 20 - the boat that was in the cradle before me had a draft of 7'.

Not sure if any of this helps. It is a personal decision - you weigh up the pros and cons, and while getting views from others helps in giving you an idea of what they considered the key decision points, the decision is still yours.

 

[rwoofer]

Sounds like you are approaching this in a very sensible way, so I would go with what feels right to you.

As I've got older I've appreciated shallow draft more and more, particularly in crowded places. My first cruising boat was a Moody 44 with over 2m draft and every boat since has had a lower draft and now at 30cm (albeit in a much smaller boat). With the Moody I worried more about getting into port early to secure the more scarce deep berth places. With the shallow draft I'm very relaxed because I'm more likely to find a spot that suits. I remember once sailing to the south coast of Belle Ile (or maybe one of the other islands) in southern Brittany and there was only one mooring buoy that could take the Moody. Thankfully it was free as it was rough conditions and we really were too tired to sail on for another couple of hours!

 

[lpdsn]

I think you (the OP) are approaching the point where it is your decision alone. Other forumites can help at an earlier stage by pointing you at boats you may not have thought of or highlighting features that, in their opinion, you really should have or really don't want to worry about.

Now there's a couple of boats that you like the look of and it is really just a matter of looking at examples to see which you like the most. I don't see the fact that they're two different styles of boat to be that unusual. I agonised for quite a while between buying a round the cans racer and a cruiser.

 

[Greg2]

I'm guessing awb owners are mildly insulted by your description of their beloved boats and IP owners by being told they are sailing well made sheds and nobody is allowed to comment anyway as nobody has owned both.

Now if you asked owners what they liked and disliked about the single choice they had made....

Blimey, that certainly wasn’t my intention!

Jut re-read it and didn’t quite take that from it but I guess it was a very factual reflection of what my research to date had found, which if said during a friendly chat over a pint wouldn’t raise any eyebrows but when written it might be perceived differently. I should be clear that my précis was based upon what appears to be received wisdom on t’internet and contrary views would be most welcome. If have ruffled any feathers then I apologise unreservedly.

I was actually looking for views, both from direct experience but also from general experience of yachting so please feel free to contribute

 

[RupertW]

Blimey, that certainly wasn’t my intention!

Jut re-read it and didn’t quite take that from it but I guess it was a very factual reflection of what my research to date had found, which if said during a friendly chat over a pint wouldn’t raise any eyebrows but when written it might be perceived differently. I should be clear that my précis was based upon what appears to be received wisdom on t’internet and contrary views would be most welcome. If have ruffled any feathers then I apologise unreservedly.

I was actually looking for views, both from direct experience but also from general experience of yachting so please feel free to contribute

Not sure you really ruffled any feathers and I was just guessing why no replies. I hadnt replied simply because I hadn't owned an IP, just an AWB whose build quality I can't fault even if many domiestic fittings like lights and pipes and taps needed changing when we bought it after 12 years.

I wanted performance but compromised a lot so that we could have a comfortable floating holiday home with 3 doubles and a set of bunk beds all in their own cabins serviced by 2 heads. And a cockpit big enough to party and an easy walk through stern. An older heavier boat would not have given me that and would have been even slower.

Basically I know that I'm not going to be sailing alone this way and will also enjoy many inexperienced friends company for year after year because of the comfort and accommodation. And I still get to sail quite a bit too. I would not get that at all with the only hi spec boat I know well which is a Swan, whose interior designer must have been paid by weight not knowledge of ergonomics. But the quirky design below is a real treat to the eye.

 

[Greg2]

Thanks for the comments.

The views on draft are helpful - I guess it perhaps shouldn’t be a deal-breaker but it is a strong preference I think.

I am not against AWBs, quite the contrary in fact as I can see their benefits and that is why one is a clear option for us. A lot of boat that will, in reality, do all that we want to do very well and crucially, we like the ones we are thinking of.

The IPs on the market currently are all mid-2000s boats so quite similar to the Jeanneaus we would be considering. Maintenance costs probably similar - standing rigging replacement appears to be a likely requirement on most candidate boats we have seen. Possibly sails as well.

IPs are undoubtedly a niche item and re-sale would be a concern. Trouble is that the more I read about them and how they are built the more I like them! What I can’t really fathom is how much of an issue light airs and upwind sailing performance will be and whether the other benefits they might bring would outweigh that. Owners certainly appear to think so and say that performance isn’t the issue that many perceive it to be. In reality if we do decide to go this way then it would have to be the right deal - we tend to go with our heads and not our hearts when it comes to boat buying

As has been said, we will ultimately have to decide but it is helpful to draw upon the thoughts of those more experienced in the yacht world

 

[dunedin]

It is important that you buy what you want, to what we would buy.

One observation would be that the IP370 seems to have a slightly unusual interior layout (at least the one I found), as well as rather unconventional in other areas - which may be good, but doesn’t appeal to me. Not clear what usable Sea berths there are, for example.

If the Jeanneau option doesn’t do it for you emotionally, have you at least looked at something like this, which might hit the spot with the heart, and be at least as practical if not more so than both other options
https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1558733/

 

[ashtead]

If you are concerned at draft have you considered a viewing a Southerly or other vessel with a lifting keel ? While the Southerly might not give the space of the Jen it will be well crafted internally .

 

[Greg2]

Thanks guys, some helpful thoughts.

RupertW - you rationale for buying an AWB is pretty much why one is an option for us. Like the owners versions with a large aft double though so wouldn’t have quite as much room for guests! Our thinking would be if there is a saloon conversion to a double berth that should do us along with a fore cabin for guests.

Dunedin - Know what you mean about the layout of the IP370 but having been aboard one we really liked it and thought that it worked for a cruising couple with occasional guests, which is what we would probably be doing. One downside is the single heads right next to the master cabin - a bit up close and personal when guests make those middle of the night heads visits! The HR looks like a nice boat and I know they are quality - looks a bit dark in the photos though. Need to look at one or two I guess. Loved the ‘ Other Equipment - running water’ on the Description tab

Asthead - Looked at Southerlys in the past but not recently. Guess it might help if we have another gander.

 

[westhinder]

What I can’t really fathom is how much of an issue light airs and upwind sailing performance will be and whether the other benefits they might bring would outweigh that. Owners certainly appear to think so and say that performance isn’t the issue that many perceive it to be. In reality if we do decide to go this way then it would have to be the right deal - we tend to go with our heads and not our hearts when it comes to boat buying

Owners tend to be very good at rationalizing their choices post factum. I do not claim to be different.
As far as performance is concerned, the question is really how important you find sailing. If sailing for you is mainly about beam or broad reaching, and you are content to put on the engine rather than spend some time hard on the wind trying to gain ground, then most boats with a big reliable engine will do. If you feel sailing to windward is part and parcel of sailing, and indeed the point of sail where the difference shows up, then you have to choose more carefully.
My first yacht was a Rival 34, a very seaworthy and seakindly boat, that I loved dearly. She did not point very high, nor was she very quick, but I did not care too much, I accepted it. The boat could take all the sea threw at her and I was not in a hurry.
Then I bought my Starlight, which is not only bigger and more comfortable, it is also a much faster and better sailing boat. And it has changed my outlook. What used to be just the way it was, turned out not to be necessarily so. Sailing fast in light winds and sailing fast and close to windward turned out to be possible, highly enjoyable and slightly addictive.
So my advice would be to try and make a couple of test sails, in order to find out what kind of sailing you really like and hence what kind of boat you want. Judging by your two potential candidates, you are still not clear about the kind of sailing you would like to do, could well end up buying the wrong boat for you and afterwards be disappointed that this sailing thing is not really for you.

 

[Skylark]

A choice between those 2 boats seems to be a very enigmatic dilemma. They do seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. Asking a forum to help you decide also suggests a degree of uncertainty. I suspect that whichever you chose, you’ll envy the features of the boat you turned down. I’d hang on a while until your requirements and needs become more clear. Don’t buy in haste and regret it.

 

[Greg2]

Hmmmm.....some fair comment I think. Perhaps I am a conflicted soul

On reflection I think I am trying to balance two differing desires. On the one hand I do enjoy sailing. Punching into the wind with some heel, a bit of spray and trying to get the most out of the boat is great fun - although SWMBO suffers from something we have dubbed ‘heeling tourettes’

On the the other hand my mobo background is all about a seaworthy boat that offers plenty of comfort and will get us there so the thought of motoring into the wind isn’t as big a deal as it might be for more purist sailors.

If we are day sailing then we would happily spend hours beating upwind but if we are cruising then the donkey would be on fairly swiftly if required to make reasonable headway in the direction we want to go. Maybe that will change as time goes on and we get more sailing experience under our belts but who knows.

Perhaps the key thing for us is that it is primarily about cruising and having a motor sailer on the options list (Island Packet SP Cruiser) is perhaps quite telling.

 

[ashtead]

If you are attracted to an SP cruiser and not unduly concerned at length then a Moody 45DS would be another option to view with a big engine , inside controls and more akin internally to a mobo maybe . Built by Hanse and offers plenty of comfort in a package that might appeal in terms of space and layout.

 

[pvb]

If you are attracted to an SP cruiser and not unduly concerned at length then a Moody 45DS would be another option to view with a big engine , inside controls and more akin internally to a mobo maybe . Built by Hanse and offers plenty of comfort in a package that might appeal in terms of space and layout.

Aren't they about double the OP's budget?

 

[ashtead]

They might be but I don't know - he was looking at IPs so didn't know if he had a cap, however he seem to be looking for a quality cruising vessel which sailed with the creature comforts and had the space of a mobo so a second hand one seemed a possible choice

 

[westhinder]

Have you considered deck saloons like the Wauquiez or Nordship? They have the advantages of a deck saloon: space, comfort, great views, inside steering position (with the autopilot control) and are still very decent sailers, much more rewarding than the Island Packet I would think.

 

[Hacker]

Again not sure of OPs budget but a Sirius (35 or 38) would seem to tick his boxes.