MiToS re-built/fit- versilcraft Mystery43

[vas]

sorry, was couple of days off with a bad cold, still recovering and before that working too hard (in order to catch the cold...)

One of the previous owners was a great Plummer! Good diameter conversion mod with the bottle

indeed! should create a manual on what not to do when tinkering with boats... I'd probably fill a few pages! The amazing thing though is that it did work, I'm sure this was running for over a decade (if not more!) like that...

Hi Vas
Your efforts are bordering on legendary, deserves at least an ebook on completion. Makes me relieved though I didn't buy a wooden boat I fell for.
In the end I bought an '86 Dutch Steel Cruiser with twin engines and plenty of airflow built in. A design which has been commercially rated 60 miles from port, not the usual river and coastal, so it should get us to Crete, slowly, maybe via Volos

Not sure about the tiles in the heads though, not everything from the good old days was good, personal opinion - tiles are a house thing, not for boats.... but then what do I know.

got to wait got another work related book in the making.
Well, if you come our ways give me a call (although Volos is a bit of a detour if you're travelling East to Crete!)
not sure on the tiles myself, mind originally boat had formica type laminate glued on 12mm ply. Extremely strong a pig to remove 36yrs later

Hat off for you V... think I would have schrunk into a corner crying facing the challenges you are.... She'll be good as (if not better than) new when you're finished....

Got to love the innovative plumbing though!!

That through hull fittings looks pretty solid from what I can see in the picture .. if it is the original one from 40 years ago, that is pretty impressive.
...

comeon, I'd have felt like that if I found that frames and keel were shot, that would be a problem, the others are just a bit of work
regarding the through fittings, yes they ARE solid, haven't got a clue what was installed when though. Difficult to say other than there's a mix of bronzy stuff with galv.steel and pretty sure brass in there, which isn't what the book says

Hi Vas,

Thought I'd cheer you up with this video........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfUaKXasdD4

pretty impressive, but iirc from previous threads in here, it wont work as a/f, will it?

V... as promised....

Bottom of keel to top of deck @ bulkhead = 75 Cm ...

From top of keel stringer to top of deck @ bulkhead = 60 Cm

..... and this is the aft deck canopy arrangement ... basically a SS tube sliding inside another with a locking bolt. Canvas buttons in at the back of a teak list underneath the flybridge and rolls out as the inner tubes slides backwards. Use tie-backs to aft cleats. Single rope fastened at centre of canvass that is tied to railing on flybridge to form the peak (A) that ensures water running backwards & out to the sides.... simple and effective as I do not wish to have a full aft canopy, but every now & then it is useful to have that lillte bit of extra cover..... got a reversable 1/2 single side as well, in case I need to provide additional wind shelter ...

will compare to mine, don't look that different, considering I've got keel and a top thing raising a good 80mm from the ply inside.

Alf, my aft deck goes almost to the transom so no need for this. Originallly had some side canvas covers with nasty clear windows. Doubt I'll fit new ones.

Now, to some progress:

First inside managed to remove one ply door frame cutting it to the right size so that it fits in its new position (450mm towards the bow...) Not an exceptionally nice job, as part of the area to cut was thickened (so that it was 25mm or so to fit the alu door frame) so I had to chisel out the new layer of ply and then cut through the main 12mm one. Tried a 45deg cut so that it's easier to fit on the new position after a similar treatment.

On the hullstripping front, I almost finished clearing the bows mainly stbrd side checking where I'm going to fit this bowthuster... Ideally I'd like it tucked just in front of the fwd bulkhead (ex-bulkhead to be exact) but the rule of 1D above and 2D below (where D is the tunnel diametre in my case 185mm) doesnt work (it's more like 1:1:1 I wonder if its a big problem...).
Further and most annoyingly, I'm not sure where the craft water line will be with all these alterations, moving heads from stbrd midship to port and towards the bow, removing the captains cabin/mousetrap on the bow and fitting a double bed thereabouts, fitting a 40kg bowthruster, lighting up the decks by going 10mm down in overal thickness, removing about a ton in coats of paint all around, who knows, maybe only the tip of the keel will be in the water after all and half the P bracket will be on air
Any ideas if I should expect serious changes in w/l? TBH I doubt it will alter more than a couple of cm...
I'll post a new thread probably on the bow thruster fitting with some sketches once i find time to do them

George cleared up the space for one 1250X2500mm sheet of ply to be fitted early next week as weather is too damp over the last couple of days and I'd like the area by the keel to dry a bit.
Ah btw, chine up hull is 12mm, chine to keel its 15mm.

following pics are a bit shocking, but don't worry all'll be fine next week

just different "eyes" cleared up:

and the whole opening:

and a nice detail of the existing (leaking) patch:

Don't mean that it leaked at this point, was probably ok on this spot.


slowly recovering, will try to catch up with some work tomorrow.

cheers

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Sorry to hear you've been poorly Vas, a lot of it about over here too.

Thanks for the progress report, so where are you going to mount the new stabilisers?

 

[vas]

Sorry to hear you've been poorly Vas, a lot of it about over here too.

Thanks for the progress report, so where are you going to mount the new stabilisers?

thanks raf,

stabs would go on the rear side of this wee patch.
dead easy, just built up a few layers of iroko leave the right gap in the middle and you fit them.
However, I'm not going to do it because we don't have slings around here (we're very traditional you know) and there's no way to bring her out!
No, it's not that the stabs cost way more than the whole craft together, nor that I'd need a massive geny, it's just the slings problem

may have to built some flopper stoppers though at some point, but I'll need a very robust bimini arch thing. but that's 5pages down the to do list, so you'll have to wait a bit...

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

hm,

may have to rethink

was just looking at the liftout pics (first post of this thread) and realised that maybe stabs would fit in this trolley jobbie!

now where can I get a set of these flappy things for a couple of grand? Bart?

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Looks very dooable. I'm sure a man of your calibre can knock some stabs up with a couple of washing machine motors, stainless tube, and a bit of grp? You've tackled far more difficult things on the rebuild to date. I can possibly assist with the controller system too. Go on, you know it makes sense while she is stripped out.

 

[DTIM]

Thanks for the progress report, so where are you going to mount the new stabilisers?[/QUOTE]

No need to go diving or use ultrasound for hull thickness checks!!

Seriously great work Vas, keep the udates coming

 

[BartW]

Looks very dooable. I'm sure a man of your calibre can knock some stabs up with a couple of washing machine motors, stainless tube, and a bit of grp? You've tackled far more difficult things on the rebuild to date.

exactly my idea

well done Vas, keep up the nice work

 

[jfm]

couple of washing machine motors, stainless tube, and a bit of grp?

You could not bother with motors and just have long shafts, with a tiller on each side deck. Then hire a couple of strong crew girls to operate them looking at the waves and anticipating the roll. They'd get hot and steamy in the sunshine and would need suitable attire, but hey, what's not to like?

 

[rafiki_]

You could not bother with motors and just have long shafts, with a tiller on each side deck. Then hire a couple of strong crew girls to operate them looking at the waves and anticipating the roll. They'd get hot and steamy in the sunshine and would need suitable attire, but hey, what's not to like?

Have you been watching dodgy films again? . The rest of us were being deadly serious.

 

[rbcoomer]

...And still waiting for opinions on my previous post on the 17th re the process of treating the hull and frames. Any takers?


cheers

V.

Hi Vas,

As nobody seems to have added anything on this, I did a little bit of research and Googling...

Have you come across either of these?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/should-plywood-boats-be-sealed-both-sides-77648.html (close you eyes on last sentence of post #20!)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/epoxy-sheath-for-an-old-wooden-sailboat-76729.html

The first may be a useful read as it's a similar build etc - but very much a divided opinion. The second is a different scenario in that the boat is a different construction, but an interesting (sorry I mean anorak) read

I think if you are seriously looking at a fibreglass 'skin', then I'd leave the inside 'as is' and try and ensure good ventilation between the hull and any internal structure where moisture could accumulate. If you could get to all of it or were building from scratch, then probably a different answer!

I'm surprised that nobody with suitable experience has contributed some thoughts, but perhaps a post over on the PBO forum might yield some ideas/feedback? (Although based on the links above, the opinions will be equally divided...)

Great progress all round however and utmost respect for the shear amount of effort and dedication... (I'm overcome with guilt now as I just seem to have so little time to progress my project - and it's dwarfed by MiToS! )

Best regards,

Rob

 

[BartW]

mind I cannot believe that originally all wooden hulls are left raw/untreated inside!

So, yes, Epoxy outside plus antifoul, but what inside? Bilge paint diluted? nothing? CPES?
Curious to hear opinions.

Can’t give you much advice Vas, just a few observations

Remember that everything above deck on BA is plywood construction
All exposed outsides are painted with a 2 component epoxy paint, and this seems to last very well, (after a repaint in 2009)

-We had to do a repair around a panel on the inside of one radar arch post,
This acces panel for pulling wires to the radar arch, is hidden behind the Flybridge sofa,
This was not sealed water tight, so regular water ingress (little quantity), but remaining humidity inside (difficult to dryout completely) made the panel and some of the surrounding plywood rotten.
After opening, we noticed that the inside of the radar arch posts was unthreated wood.
And everything that was not infected with humidity was in perfect condition (after 21years)

-There are other area’s which ARE painted from the inside;
different deck lockers and doors, other acces panels,…. but I don’t know which paint

-We are repairing the fake ventilation inlet grating, just above the side deck doors (P and SB)
These are a sandwistch construction of many 25mm plywood planks. Each plank was Epoxy painted on each side except one edge, the one touching the wall,
And now the thin end parts of this grating are becoming "dead wood" after 20 years, (these break very easy)
But these ends where slightly infected by water ingress.

-The Italian workers did some patches on the inside of the Gunwale, this is a known disease from these older Canados, that there is humidity ingress in the gunwhale through the guardrail fittings,
this cant easily dry, starts damaging the wood from the inside.
So they threated the new plywood patches with a very thick layer of ….. CPES(?)

-The new steps on BA, underneath is a plywood construction for stability of the hull, all this is threated with CPES, inside and outside.

My conclusion, (as an observer, no specialist)
All inside surfaces that are completely dry, don’t need to be treated (but a layer of CPES would’nt harm)
All inside surfaces that have or could have humidity on them, bilges, bathroom floor bottom, outside lockers and doors, …. Should have a treatment.

Or even simpler : make sure that plywood remains completely dry

 

[BigMal]

Hi Vas
Big Big Job
I started a similar job about 3 years ago on a plywood 36 foot boat. After a lot of research i found it to be home made from Glen-L-Marine plans all their boat plans are for plywood boats a lot of the questions your asking are answered there, like outside of the hull is glassed with epoxy and cloth for anti abrasion not water proofing and inside use something like Cuprinol 5 star complete wood treatment and then paint it if you want.As far as leaving it to breath ! plywood is supposed to be stable and not need to breath so i would want to keep the moisture out because it does expand when it gets wet.

 

[BigMal]

Hi Vas
Big Big Job
I started a similar job about 3 years ago on a plywood 36 foot boat. After a lot of research i found it to be home made from Glen-L-Marine plans all their boat plans are for plywood boats a lot of the questions your asking are answered there, like outside of the hull is glassed with epoxy and cloth for anti abrasion not water proofing and inside use something like Cuprinol 5 star complete wood treatment and then paint it if you want.As far as leaving it to breath ! plywood is supposed to be stable and not need to breath so i would want to keep the moisture out because it does expand when it gets wet.

 

[vas]

hello,

thanks for all contributions, serious or not, John

I'll leave the stabs for the time being, wait and see how they work on BA and then assuming I win the lotto that I don't even play, I'll consider my options next life.

I'll also leave the interesting treat or not debate on the ply, thanks Robin for the links, I hadn't come across, don't worry I know what are the limitations of ply hulls, don't expect someone nicknamed resin head to tell me
I have the same concerns and tending towards the leave untreated and make damn sure no water gets in line, but we shall see.
Bart, the two pack paint on all areas will be polyurethene and not epoxy. Epoxy has a problem with UV, so is never intentionally left under the sun



some progress after a few cold and windy days:


The bow cabin and the surrounding area is almost completely clean, to the level that we did the first two new additions. Extended the port stringer two frames towards the bow so that two of the heads walls can be supported on it, and fitted a 60X70mm teak beam level to the port side corridor wall. This will be used to fit, support and align the heads wall with it's door. In order to do so, the front bulkhead remains (where the bulkhead separating the bow cabin to the crew mousetrap was) were strengthened with two sheets of 15mm ply, where this teak beam is secured.
Waiting for the next nasty weather spell to continue with two supports (beam is 2.4m and flexing a bit) to the frames and cutting out the wall-door hole combo from the old stbrd side heads to be repositioned.

Hull frames were generally OK, one was badly cracked. I think that must have happened when the previous patch was done and brute force was employed in removing all panel...

and the finished article:

Frame to the keel is a bitch to paint strip, heatgun doesn't fit properly, angles are awkward, orbital sander also doesn't fit... Slowly getting there though and no I'm not using chemical paint stripping, don't like it!

Outside, the main patch area was prepared, edges scarfed where needed and test fitted today. Will probably be glued in place tomorrow:

Also spent a couple of days paintstripping the stbrd side and I'm slowly getting there.

Only new worry is that I noticed that some areas as I'm slowly moving aft (and am currently almost under the fuel tanks) seem more oily that before in a fancy way that's not really diesel, but haven't got a clue what it is... That is visible as a darker patch on some of the pics and is around the first and second sprayrail.
The v.bad scenario (as I'm currently thinking it) is that there's tank leaking diesel somewhere on the stbrd side, the so and so scenario is that the pipe bringing the diesel from the aft deck to the tanks is leaking somewhere.

Tanks from what I could see out of the above chine patches to the hull (they're enclosed and not really visible) is that they're metal coated outside with something that looks in v.good nick and they are 36yo. Ah, they are four pieces (left to right, symmetrically placed fwiw)
Anyway, will continue in the mostly affected area tomorrow and should have a clearer view.

4 cabin/heads doors were stripped of all equipment and are now at George's workshop to be stored/treated. They have a gray formica laminate glued on, all sides of all 4 doors look amazingly perfect, but one heads door is slightly/moderately delaminated due to water ingress:

George recons he can fix the bad one, by cleaning and removing loose bits and then stuffing it with thick epoxy and pressing the whole door together. The thickness of the door is painted, will have to be redone.



cheers

V.

 

[Robg71]

wow, you have been busy. makes me feel like I have been positively lazy the last few days....

 

[rafiki_]

Vas, with your oily stains, if diesel, they would make a strong pungent diesel smell. If no smell, then not diesel.

 

[vas]

wow, you have been busy. makes me feel like I have been positively lazy the last few days....

Rob, you got to understand, I'm trying to make you lot feel guilty for not spending an awful lot of time on your boats

Vas, with your oily stains, if diesel, they would make a strong pungent diesel smell. If no smell, then not diesel.

Raf, doesn't smell diesel. In the process, I remembered that there was a substantial steering fluid leak from the lower helm which I repaired when replacing decks. Now, this oil has soaked everything down to almost the keel (and with the water flooding the area there, has moved up the other side (helm is on stbrd side, patch is on port side...) So seems to be that.
Spend half an hour with the heat gun CAREFULLY heating the scarf joint area and it eventually stopped smoking a lot, as it did when I started. Coated the joint area plus all frames and stringers with CPES, all's good.
However, weather wasn't playing ball the last few days, with hot and humid and occasional showers keeping the area slightly damp and I didn't finish the patch. Will do tomorrow as weather's been dry for 2 days, N winds, today temp was up to 24C almost unbearably hot and sunny...

and a proof:

Prepared patch/frames:

Throughout the week I was mainly working inside especially since my second heat gun died (bl00dy hell, shouldn't mention it making through the rebuilt two posts earlier, should I?) and I have to send it back for repair (and buy another one as the repair will probably take 3weeks...)

Managed to measure/secure the support for the main heads bulkhead. Getting the plan right (based on my detailed drawings) was a nightmare, nothing level, nothing flat, nothing straight, no bearing...

yesterday did a difficult operation. Removed a 1.03m X 2.somthing m piece of the bulkhead along the corridor towards the stbrd cabin (the ex heads one) that wll be the new heads wall on the stbrd side along the corridor towards the bow. Leaves stbrd cabin with a massive hole which will be filled this week after making a simpler scarf joint on both vertical sides. Top and bottom are OK as there's good contact with the relevant beams and it's easy to glue/screw them down.

The hole makes life slightly easier in terms of cleaning /stripping the hull stringers around the area without having to crawl around, so will take advantage and finish the stripping down there.

At the same time, managed to remove the insulated pipework for the air con which is nicely tucked in a not so easily accessible spot and which I contemplate moving to an easier spot under the port cabin bed. We shall see...

This week's plan is to get the bulkheads up, glue/screw them down and prepare some temp flooring for the heads as I cannot stand acrobatics anymore
Ofcourse we'll hopefully finish with the port side hull patching and should be working on the stbrd side hull stripping (60% done, the aft section to go)

Alf, I think I've forgotten that bow cabin to keel distance, it's 670mm but there's a keel involved, so in grp terms more like 750mm so similar to yours iirc.

l8r

V.

 

[vas]

first piece is in place!
waited for the right weather and got it!

Fit nicely, glued and screwed (5X50ss) every 180mm or so.
Second piece also ready, that was a bit more tricky as it had to fit properly on both sides to seal the hull. I'd dare say an almost perfect fit, will be glued/screwed in place tomorrow if the weather's fine, else Sat.

glued frames/stringers et al:

first one fit, second one secured temporarily with wedges:

New heat gun at hand, stripped over a metre of the stbrd side today. Less than 4m to reach the transom.

For sure with all the steering fluid that the ply has drunk, there's no fcking way of rotting around the tanks area
Will be interesting trying to CPES it though

A fair amount of progress inside but rather uncomfortable as I have to work 20-30cm LOWER than my feet. Not trained as a monkey (yet!) I'm suffering a bit.

by the w/e the main heads walls will be up with me testing shower floor level/acecss and drain.
Seriously considering raising the heads floor by 100mm or so, still have 1.95m clearance making it possible to have a drain from the shower straight out just above w/l avoiding grey water tanks and all that carp.

Very happy with my last ebay purchase, a 60lph 220V watermaker for 520quid. Even if I change the membrane (standard 2540 dow job, less than 200euro delivered down here) I'll have it up and running for less than a grand (euro money) including the shipping from UK to GR.

If only I could find a s/h hydraulic passarelle going cheap then the to buy list would be minimal
Found a few around here but they're besenzoni recent ones asking 2.5k euro
Did a rough budget for a custom job and as Bertramdriver mentioned in another thread, works out cheaper to buy a proper one...

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

Thanks for update Vas. As ever, hat off to you. I'm a bit sceptical about shower draining straight to the sea unless shower tray is well above w/line, which it isn't. An upward U bend/antisiphon isn't possible so it feels like a big sinking risk surely? You could use a n/r valve but you have no head so it will slow down the shower draining too much. Also would clog with hairs.

Surely you gotta use one of those little sumps? Only €30 if you mould it yourself or can find a suitable vessel into which you fit €25 of ebay pump and float switch

 

[Divemaster1]

..............Seriously considering raising the heads floor by 100mm or so, still have 1.95m clearance making it possible to have a drain from the shower straight out just above w/l avoiding grey water tanks and all that carp.
...........

V...

Support jfm's concern with shower draining straight to sea without having space for a swan neck and non-return valves (which can fail).... so for your info we have a multi-source shower sump like this installed......http://www.asap-supplies.com/marine/waste-water-tanks/rule-shower-sump-system-504927

Mounted in the centre section of the hull, allowing for a fast drain of two showers ... and the inboard sink... gives flexibility of where to mount what drains etc., and for a proper swan-neck etc., for the pump drain under the bed in the port cabin...