Med Winter Liveaboard Suggestions Please

[nortada]

I have been following the twists and turns of this thread with interest; albeit it has drifted away from the OP.

I am a little saddened to see how, in places, it has become argumentative. Please not in here.

I lay my cards face up. More than happy to discuss but because of my New Year’s Resolution, I am not going to get into a slagging match?

We first came to Portugal in 1988 and have based our boat out here since 2002 and have spent the intervening time in Portugal for varying lengths of time.

When we first arrived we got a fiscal (tax) numbers and made tentative enquiries about tax liability.

Initially, we were advised there was a dual tax agreement so we would not be double taxed. However, reasonably, any income earned in Portugal would be taxed in Portugal. However, as U.K. Government pensions were taxed at source in the U.K., they would not be taxed in Portugal.

We were warned that may be asked to complete a Portuguese tax return but when we explained as we were pensioners and our only income was U.K. based pensions. We were advised that there would be little point in us putting in a nil tax return. But times change.

One wrinkle, as our main source is a MOD pension, taxed in the U.K., we could have elected to have our tax affairs managed in Portugal. This could result in an increased tax allowance, MOD taxed in U.K. State pensions taxed in Portugal = dual tax relief. Additionally, married couples are taxed jointly and this can bring another benefit. Reckon it could be worth about £1,500 per annum, but didn’t pursue it - too much potential hassle.

Despite it is a European Union, countries do things in there own way so it is important to realise there is no common line.

If my many Dutch and German friends here are anything to go by, following the ongoing vaccine fiasco and the attitude of the EU to the U.K., Brussels is going to have a hard job to keep the train on the rails and countries will tend to do their own thing.

Brits and Residency in the EU is an interesting issue, again residency is a national not EU issue so once again contraries will do their own thing.

Because of my situation, I have been researching U.K. and Portugal.

As far as I can see, the U.K. is simple, if you are a U.K. national, with citizenship, then you should be a British ordinary resident with no required meant to spend a specific minimum number of days in country per annum, to retain all of your U.K. rights. If you are receiving a U.K. pension, you qualify for the U.K. based S1 system which means you will get U.K. NHS care free when you are in the U.K. and the U.K. will continue to pay for your health care in your EU host country. This possibly why the question of health insurance may not be an issue for U.K. residents in the EU over a certain age.

In Portugal it is not quite so straight forward. When we got residency, we were asked did we intend to settle in Portugal?

Our answer, we have kept our boat in Lagos for many years and would like to continue to, we do not have property in Portugal and do not intend to buy. We hope to continue to commute between the Portugal and the U.K. This answer satisfied.

It is commonly accepted that to retain Portuguese residency, you must spend at least 6 months per annum in the country - has anybody actually seen this written anywhere

When I started to research this, I was told that as a temporary resident, you mustn’t be absent from Portugal for more than 6 months - not the same thing. I was then advised that you had to be in Portugal for at least 4 months per annum. I understand that permanent residents must visit Portugal once every 2 years but there is no days served, requirement. Still trying to get this in writing but not always easy in Portugal and I do not want to ask questions, when I might get the wrong answer

So there you have it, pick over it, challenge and ask questions but I am not getting into fisticuffs?

I will post developments, but not rumour.

Currently working out how to get back to the Covid jab that awaits us.

 

[Graham376]

I understand that permanent residents must visit Portugal once every 2 years but there is no days served, requirement. Still trying to get this in writing but not always easy in Portugal and I do not want to ask questions, when I might get the wrong answer‼

A permanent residence permit may be cancelled if the holder, without an acceptable justification, is away from Portugal for a period of 24 consecutive months, or for a period of non-consecutive 30 months over 5 years. However, it is explicitly deemed acceptable to be away for any period of time in one's country of origin in order to carry out a professional, entrepreneurial, cultural or social activity

 

[Crisby]

@ Chisby
Chris just had a conversation which maybe interesting for you. Last year people where getting yearly visa for Italy, but I tho they stopped them now we left , maybe I just got confused because what people been posting on ybw .
anyway just found out
They still doing them , one guy here just got his,
You need a marina berth address, 2500 euros PM income or a total of that amount yearly saving , if you married it another 20% for you wife .
And you have to have an interview at the embassy tho some had these at local government office .
Another couple are about to apply for these , if I hear anymore info I PM you .
Save getting conflict info from people here .

Funnily enough we’ve just been in touch with some friends in Ragusa (ZigZag)who took the residency route before Christmas, I’ll check with them whether that was the same procedure for them.

Chris

 

[truscott]

What's the 180 day limit on boats? EU VAT paid boats have no time limit but unpaid are limited to 18 months. Presumably, now being resident you had to matriculate your boat anyway?

As for other countries, each has their own rules which vary in many ways.

Greece mandates that non-EU residents, with Non VAT paid vessels, may only enjoy the use of the vessel for 6 months in every 12. It's well known in the Kiwi & Ozzie Med sailors circles and well documented on sites such as Noonsite etc.... I have firsthand experience of having the book thrown at me when I spent 12 months cruising Greece on a National Longstay Cat D Visa. Chris Rob of this forum, and the CA, is aware of my experience and I did document it here and on other forums at the time (including the CA). Also happened to Ozzie and Canadian friends we cruised in company with. At Kos for the Ozzie's and at Preveza (with me) for the Canadians.
I don't think this will apply to most Brits who already had their VAT paid boats in the EU on whatever date is to be used for UK/EU VAT conversion. Lachlan (also a poster on this forum) has experience of cruising as a non-EU national on the same visa as me, with a VAT paid boat, and hasn't experienced the same issue.

FWIW, we concluded that with a non VAT paid boat, the Nat visa is a waste of time. Better to just do the Schengen shuffle. Like Vic says, it's possible to fudge the edges of your time without drawing to much attention. And a 3 month trip somewhere other than Schengen in the middle of winter isn't such a bad idea. Having spent 5 months in a marina in Crete during one of the coldest winters on record, flying off to the UK to visit the in-laws for some of it would have been quite a better idea.

PT

 

[sailaboutvic]

Funnily enough we’ve just been in touch with some friends in Ragusa (ZigZag)who took the residency route before Christmas, I’ll check with them whether that was the same procedure for them.

Chris

Its still on and people here in this marina are using Ragusa to apply , it seen they are easier to deal with as quite a few cruiser had done their there.
Good luck.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Greece mandates that non-EU residents, with Non VAT paid vessels, may only enjoy the use of the vessel for 6 months in every 12. It's well known in the Kiwi & Ozzie Med sailors circles and well documented on sites such as Noonsite etc.... I have firsthand experience of having the book thrown at me when I spent 12 months cruising Greece on a National Longstay Cat D Visa. Chris Rob of this forum, and the CA, is aware of my experience and I did document it here and on other forums at the time (including the CA). Also happened to Ozzie and Canadian friends we cruised in company with. At Kos for the Ozzie's and at Preveza (with me) for the Canadians.
I don't think this will apply to most Brits who already had their VAT paid boats in the EU on whatever date is to be used for UK/EU VAT conversion. Lachlan (also a poster on this forum) has experience of cruising as a non-EU national on the same visa as me, with a VAT paid boat, and hasn't experienced the same issue.

FWIW, we concluded that with a non VAT paid boat, the Nat visa is a waste of time. Better to just do the Schengen shuffle. Like Vic says, it's possible to fudge the edges of your time without drawing to much attention. And a 3 month trip somewhere other than Schengen in the middle of winter isn't such a bad idea. Having spent 5 months in a marina in Crete during one of the coldest winters on record, flying off to the UK to visit the in-laws for some of it would have been quite a better idea.

PT

The problem with YBW forum a largely amount who post here only have experience is in one country be it Greece or Portugal and even in them country it can verify a lot.
their have no experience at all about how things work in other EU country's how tough or how lean the official are what you can or can't get away with and in what region of each set country because again it can verify what you can do and you can't else where
Whats even worst you have people posting who never cruiser in they live other then a week sail to France ,
so they Google up all this stuff and keep repeating it over and over again Until their scare the sh@t out of naive cruisers .

I have gone in and out of EU country and have been for more years without talking to any one official ,
would I do it in Croatia ? HELL NO , because I know very well what will happen And I know the chances of getting found out is very high .

just the other day a ozzie cruiser in our marina was out of his mind when his time was up after reading posting here about being kicked out of the EU being ban and Fined ,
His partner in tears he was considered rather the risk of being told to leave he do nothing ,
I forcefully pushed the point over none of that chap his been reading is going to happened here in this region and go and tell the CG time run out but you can't leave yet you may need a few more weeks maybe a month .
he would had been very unlucky to get any other respond then he got , which was we stamp you out keep your head down till you do leave .

Probably the worst EU country I had to navigate is Greece , its almost impossible to give any good advise as in the same port police office you get two very different option what the rules are from different official so what chance do you have in different region if the same official in the same office can't agree.
I had officer arguing while I'm standing there in the pass .

Things are not as black and white as when you Google them and if you want to cruise you have to be adaptable to each situation .
That the different between cruiser who forever having problem and the once who very rarely have problems .

 

[nortada]

The problem with YBW forum a largely amount who post here only have experience is in one country be it Greece or Portugal and even in them country it can verify a lot.
their have no experience at all about how things work in other EU country's how tough or how lean the official are what you can or can't get away with and in what region of each set country because again it can verify what you can do and you can't else where
Whats even worst you have people posting who never cruiser in they live other then a week sail to France ,
so they Google up all this stuff and keep repeating it over and over again Until their scare the sh@t out of naive cruisers .

I have gone in and out of EU country and have been for more years without talking to any one official ,
would I do it in Croatia ? HELL NO , because I know very well what will happen And I know the chances of getting found out is very high .

just the other day a ozzie cruiser in our marina was out of his mind when his time was up after reading posting here about being kicked out of the EU being ban and Fined ,
His partner in tears he was considered rather the risk of being told to leave he do nothing ,
I forcefully pushed the point over none of that chap his been reading is going to happened here in this region and go and tell the CG time run out but you can't leave yet you may need a few more weeks maybe a month .
he would had been very unlucky to get any other respond then he got , which was we stamp you out keep your head down till you do leave .

Probably the worst EU country I had to navigate is Greece , its almost impossible to give any good advise as in the same port police office you get two very different option what the rules are from different official so what chance do you have in different region if the same official in the same office can't agree.
I had officer arguing while I'm standing there in the pass .

Things are not as black and white as when you Google them and if you want to cruise you have to be adaptable to each situation .
That the different between cruiser who forever having problem and the once who very rarely have problems .

Provided, contributors stick to what they know, it matters not one jot, if like us, they spend the vast majority of their time in one EU country or constantly cruise the EU.

For Brits, on 31/12/20, the world changed. Whilst experiences prior to that date may be interesting, they may no longer have much relevance in this brave new world. Then you have Covid, which is bringing another raft of change, temporary or permanent

Truth is, nobody knows what the future holds so every opinion is as valid as the next. However, I am cautious and not prepared to advise others what to do.

As time passes new experiences, will come to the fore and provided people stick to fact and avoid conjecture, these will be useful.

One of the biggest problems is different EU countries have different laws and impose those laws in different ways. Moreover, attitudes and responses can vary within the same country. With this in mind, people who spend much of their time in a single EU country probably have a better feel for that country and their ever changing environment than visiting cruisers.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Provided, contributors stick to what they know, it matters not one jot if like us they spend the vast majority of their time in one EU country or constantly cruise the EU.

For Brits, on 31/12/20, the world changed. Whilst experiences prior to that date may be interesting, they may no longer have much relevance in this brave new world. Then you have Covid, which is bringing another raft of change, temporary or permanent.

Truth is nobody knows what the future holds so every opinion is as valid as the next.

Of course the old rules are releved
Why do anyone think its going to be different to what US , NZ AUS , Canadian and other non EU had to deal with for more years then the UK been in the EU because the UK as left the EU.
Same rules will apply until they change for every non EU cruisers .
At this moment in time its only us Brits cruisers will have to adjust to the old rules new to us nothing else,
Some have got it in there head just because your flying a red ensign the official are going to ponce on them as soon as the sun rise.

 

[differentroads]

The problem with YBW forum a largely amount who post here only have experience is in one country ... what region of each set country ...
so they Google up all this stuff and keep repeating it over and over again Until their scare the sh@t out of naive cruisers...he would had been very unlucky to get any other respond then he got , which was we stamp you out keep your head down till you do leave ... rules are from different official so...Things are not as black and white as when you Google them and if you want to cruise you have to be adaptable to each situation .
That the different between cruiser who forever having problem and the once who very rarely have problems

My experience of being out in the Med is much shorter than yours Vic but accords with your points. A lot of people are desperate to get absolutely reliable, consistent and clear information on the rules for British cruisers in the Med. This is understandable but the reality is more complicated and more contingent than the rules as currently known. And how the basic rules will be implemented will take all this year to find out, if not longer.

As you say, adaptability is the key to cruising successfully and that goes for dealing with bureaucracy every bit as much as, say, with the weather or unfamiliar anchorages.

It works out OK for Aussies, Argentinians, Russians, Americans and a host of other non-EU sailors that I've met who keep their heads down and keep moving on.

 

[sailaboutvic]

As you say, adaptability is the key to cruising successfully and that goes for dealing with bureaucracy every bit as much as, say, with the weather or unfamiliar anchorages.

It works out OK for Aussies, Argentinians, Russians, Americans and a host of other non-EU sailors that I've met who keep their heads down and keep moving on.

And this is what some can't or refuse understand .
Google away guys and good luck to you all.
Its much more stressful trying to post here for me then any thing I'm going to encounter cruising around the EU his year.

 

[nortada]

Of course the old rules are releved
Why do anyone think its going to be different to what US , NZ AUS , Canadian and other non EU had to deal with for more years then the UK been in the EU because the UK as left the EU.
Same rules will apply until they change for every non EU cruisers .
At this moment in time its only us Brits cruisers will have to adjust to the old rules new to us nothing else,
Some have got it in there head just because your flying a red ensign the official are going to ponce on them as soon as the sun rise.

For Brits old rules have not been relieved, rather their rule book has been thrown out of the window.?

Actually, in some countries, irrespective of the rules, officials treat some nationalities, in a very different way to other nationalities.

I refrain from observing WW2 and other major issues having any impact.?

 

[sailaboutvic]

@nortada
Your posting #78
Ipeople who have experience in one said country is very valuable I agree and I have personally pointed people to your comments who wanted to go to Portugal for residency but some are trying to suggest what goes on in that said country is applied everywhere else , which isn't correct

 

[nortada]

My experience of being out in the Med is much shorter than yours Vic but accords with your points. A lot of people are desperate to get absolutely reliable, consistent and clear information on the rules for British cruisers in the Med. This is understandable but the reality is more complicated and more contingent than the rules as currently known. And how the basic rules will be implemented will take all this year to find out, if not longer.

As you say, adaptability is the key to cruising successfully and that goes for dealing with bureaucracy every bit as much as, say, with the weather or unfamiliar anchorages.

It works out OK for Aussies, Argentinians, Russians, Americans and a host of other non-EU sailors that I've met who keep their heads down and keep moving on.

But are they observing the rules?

My experience of the Med goes back to 1967 - it was a very different place then so I put little store by my experiences back then

 

[nortada]

Its much more stressful trying to post here for me then any thing I'm going to encounter cruising around the EU his year.

I admire your confidence and hope it works out for you.

When/if things start to open up again (post Covid), new experiences will be valuable but I suspect for Brits, without EU residency, cruising in the Schengen Zone will take some time to reach steady state.

 

[sailaboutvic]

For Brits old rules have not been relieved, rather tharir rule book has been thrown out of the window.?

Actually, in some countries, irrespective of the rules, officials treat some nationalities, in a very different way to other nationalities.

I refrain from observing WW2 and other major issues having any impact.?

I have to say , you have a very different experience then I have when it comes to the way other countries official treat different nationals when it comes to cruising and cruisers
As a brits I have a lot of respect from Gremany , Italian , French so on ,
you only just have to listening to brits going on about how Italian are bad at anchor alway barging into spots, French sailors can't be trusted, German are rude and think they have right To do as they like ,
its us Brits who have the problem not others .
I had my encounter with official over the years but I have never been treated in any other way as my bother in arms .
Maybe inland its possibly different ,

 

[sailaboutvic]

and on that note , I shall let you all get on with it, I have repairs to do

 

[miyagimoon]

your not back in Thailand ?

Nope, Miyagi Moon is on the hard in Pangkor Malaysia, we have been stuck in UK since beginning of 2020. Malaysia will not allow us back yet. But even if we could get back there is nowhere to go as all countries are the same "LOCKED DOWN"

 

[nortada]

I have to say , you have a very different experience then I have when it comes to the way other countries official treat different nationals when it comes to cruising and cruisers
As a brits I have a lot of respect from Gremany , Italian , French so on ,
you only just have to listening to brits going on about how Italian are bad at anchor alway barging into spots, French sailors can't be trusted, German are rude and think they have right To do as they like ,
its us Brits who have the problem not others .
I had my encounter with official over the years but I have never been treated in any other way as my bother in arms .
Maybe inland its possibly different ,

You are changing the sense if my words and personalising it into Brits and the rest of the world.

I am referring to my observations on relationships between different countries, not a British perspective.

Often it is one one way street:- Dutch/German, Portuguese/Spanish, Basque/Spain, Catalan/Spain, Portuguese/Dutch, New Zealand/Australia, Scotland/England and some streets are 2 way, Greece/Turkey and there are many others. All of varying intensity.

I witnessed this regularly at plenary meetings of the NATO Alliance and very much in the intelligence community, so it is not confined to the sailing world.

Occasionally, you get the reverse, where there is an affinity between 2 countries; Portugal/England springs to mind.

If you are going to be in countries it is in your interests to know who their friends and adversaries are.

 

[Graham376]

Things are not as black and white as when you Google them and if you want to cruise you have to be adaptable to each situation .
That the different between cruiser who forever having problem and the once who very rarely have problems .

That I can agree with. Googling the official EU sites gives the official "federal" rules but then search various countries and there are wide variations in how they're applied, or not. Here in Portugal, it seems every jobsworth in every department has his/her own interpretation and they always seem to need a different document which you turn up with next day to be told by someone else it's not needed, you need something else

I've lost count of the number of times we've been boarded for paperwork checks (passport, SSR, insurance) off Portugal and Spain and even get after dark checks on the mooring but, Portugal is still a police state so not surprising.

I think it's a pity we don't have a few country specific forums as was suggested some time ago, so a clearer picture of what rules apply where.

 

[nortada]

I think it's a pity we don't have a few country specific forums as was suggested some time ago, so a clearer picture of what rules apply where.

You may recall, I asked FAT for a country specific forums.

At the time I suggested The Solent might like its own sub-forum.

I was roundly shot down here, by folk who never venture out of UK Waters and FAT never replied.

This was just after the 2016 Referendum so now could be a good time for another push?

I am reporting this post to bring it to FAT and the Moderators attention.